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I have also posted the below in #balance.
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I have also posted the below in #balance.
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Shieldbot | Cloakbot | Spider loop (with a mention of tanks): This loop seems easy to tweak.
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Shieldbot | Cloakbot | Spider loop (with a mention of tanks): This loop seems easy to tweak.
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[b]Cloak suffers vs Shield because:[/b]
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[b]Cloak suffers vs Shield because:[/b]
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* Bandit is 1:1 superior to glaive (Tested, confirmed)
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* Bandit is 1:1 superior to glaive (Tested, confirmed)
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* Ronin has a difficult time fighting shieldball due to friendly fire, felon range and shield regeneration
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* Ronin has a difficult time fighting shieldball due to friendly fire, felon range and shield regeneration
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*
Phantom
can
no
longer
1-shot
felons
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*
Phantom
can
no
longer
1-shot
felons
-
EDIT:
It
now
3
shots
them,
because
both
the
shield
and
the
unit
HP
are
higher
than
phantom
damage.
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* Ronin cannot compete with rogue. Rogue also seems to be good on terrain specifics where it can kill reduced movement speed (hills) glaives accurately and efficiently.
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* Ronin cannot compete with rogue. Rogue also seems to be good on terrain specifics where it can kill reduced movement speed (hills) glaives accurately and efficiently.
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* Snitch is superior to imp
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* Snitch is superior to imp
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[b]Shield suffers vs Spider because:[/b]
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[b]Shield suffers vs Spider because:[/b]
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* Venom is in the anti-bandit niche statistically, also fast and ranged enough to handle rogues, thugs, outlaws. All but felon.
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* Venom is in the anti-bandit niche statistically, also fast and ranged enough to handle rogues, thugs, outlaws. All but felon.
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* Recluse's weakness of inaccuracy doesn't matter against shieldballs.
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* Recluse's weakness of inaccuracy doesn't matter against shieldballs.
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[b]Spider suffers vs Cloak because:[/b]
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[b]Spider suffers vs Cloak because:[/b]
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* Glaive is a cheap anti-flea unit with enough speed and the right pricepoint to be able to overwhelm most spider units with good micro.
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* Glaive is a cheap anti-flea unit with enough speed and the right pricepoint to be able to overwhelm most spider units with good micro.
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* Ronin/Reaver does a surprisingly good job against venom/redback
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* Ronin/Reaver does a surprisingly good job against venom/redback
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* Phantom is a solid and reliable counter to Recluse
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* Phantom is a solid and reliable counter to Recluse
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Other notes: Reaver/ronin are the reason cloak has a very easy time against tanks and amphbots. Changes in this area may smooth out other RPS situations.
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Other notes: Reaver/ronin are the reason cloak has a very easy time against tanks and amphbots. Changes in this area may smooth out other RPS situations.
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"Trapped queue" refers to situations where you are forced to build specific units to handle an opening play / enemy composition, but that queue is doomed to fail later.
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"Trapped queue" refers to situations where you are forced to build specific units to handle an opening play / enemy composition, but that queue is doomed to fail later.
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[b]Proposals to help address this loop:[/b]
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[b]Proposals to help address this loop:[/b]
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Bringing glaive back up to par with bandit reduces the need for cloak to fall into a trapped queue and evens up the early game. May also help vs Rogue. To protect spider from this change, redback needs to be brought back into relevance against cloakbots. Reaver currently beats redback with a little HP left over (which it can then regenerate fully), and redback kills glaive in 4 shots inefficiently. If redback were tweaked to 3-shot glaives via damage up, attack speed down slightly but with an overall DPS tune-up that put it on par with reaver (despite being 20 metal more costly) this might help to compensate.
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Bringing glaive back up to par with bandit reduces the need for cloak to fall into a trapped queue and evens up the early game. May also help vs Rogue. To protect spider from this change, redback needs to be brought back into relevance against cloakbots. Reaver currently beats redback with a little HP left over (which it can then regenerate fully), and redback kills glaive in 4 shots inefficiently. If redback were tweaked to 3-shot glaives via damage up, attack speed down slightly but with an overall DPS tune-up that put it on par with reaver (despite being 20 metal more costly) this might help to compensate.
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Recluse is weak vs cloakbots and strong vs shieldbots, because of innacuracy. I propose that it's accuracy be increased to help it vs cloakbots, whilst reducing it's DPS to compensate Shieldbots. Recluse can be an oppressive, abusable force in a lot of situations, so it being on the weaker raw damage scale vs large targets isn't a problem.
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Recluse is weak vs cloakbots and strong vs shieldbots, because of innacuracy. I propose that it's accuracy be increased to help it vs cloakbots, whilst reducing it's DPS to compensate Shieldbots. Recluse can be an oppressive, abusable force in a lot of situations, so it being on the weaker raw damage scale vs large targets isn't a problem.
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Increase the price point of rogue further. It has more than half of the DPS of an emissary, and just under half the range. However, it's range is #1 in standoff cost unit compositions prior to artillery, therefor for all intents and purposes, guarded rogues are a mini mobile sub-emissary. They can and should cost appropriately.
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Increase the price point of rogue further. It has more than half of the DPS of an emissary, and just under half the range. However, it's range is #1 in standoff cost unit compositions prior to artillery, therefor for all intents and purposes, guarded rogues are a mini mobile sub-emissary. They can and should cost appropriately.
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Either weaken the shield regeneration or capacity of thug slightly.
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Either weaken the shield regeneration or capacity of thug slightly.
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Since reaver/venom/bandit's loop hasn't been solved here for shield vs spider, I suggest venom builds up it's emp a little more slowly in a value range that just slightly improves bandit's odds.
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Since reaver/venom/bandit's loop hasn't been solved here for shield vs spider, I suggest venom builds up it's emp a little more slowly in a value range that just slightly improves bandit's odds.
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A relevant side note: blitz needs to either be slightly cheaper or slightly tankier (When compared to ravager (250m), blitz(300m) has a mere 9 more speed but 36 less dps and roughly 2/3 the hp:cost ratio, leaning heavily on the stun.), which will help as a switch against bandit/rogue and fighting reavers which dominate tanks. Equally, emissary is failing to exist alongside lance and firewalker - and whilst it could and should be in the sweet spot to fight low-cost high density units in rogue's bracket, it is falling short. Something that boosts it's damage output to the tune of this bracket, even at increased cost, would be helpful here.
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A relevant side note: blitz needs to either be slightly cheaper or slightly tankier (When compared to ravager (250m), blitz(300m) has a mere 9 more speed but 36 less dps and roughly 2/3 the hp:cost ratio, leaning heavily on the stun.), which will help as a switch against bandit/rogue and fighting reavers which dominate tanks. Equally, emissary is failing to exist alongside lance and firewalker - and whilst it could and should be in the sweet spot to fight low-cost high density units in rogue's bracket, it is falling short. Something that boosts it's damage output to the tune of this bracket, even at increased cost, would be helpful here.
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Super side note: Imp/snitch is an entirely different discussion but essentially hinges on the strength of shieldballs, particularly in teamgames. With the existence of aspis, numerous options begin to fail, such as licho and pre-strider artillery, often leaving cloaked snitch and EMP missiles as the only remaining options in a meta that doesn't often reward fast-enough assaults. If snitch (and imp, perhaps limpet) are to receive nerfs that many think that they should, the density of shieldballs needs to be normalized first.
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Super side note: Imp/snitch is an entirely different discussion but essentially hinges on the strength of shieldballs, particularly in teamgames. With the existence of aspis, numerous options begin to fail, such as licho and pre-strider artillery, often leaving cloaked snitch and EMP missiles as the only remaining options in a meta that doesn't often reward fast-enough assaults. If snitch (and imp, perhaps limpet) are to receive nerfs that many think that they should, the density of shieldballs needs to be normalized first.
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1v1 Fac-RPS tweak suggestion for testing