| 1 |
I
sort
of
find
myself
agreeing
with
@Jhopmemes
the
most
(
although
he
was
a
bit
rude)
.
I'm
not
looking
for
ways
to
remove
(
or
effectively
remove)
any
applications
of
cloaking.
A
lot
of
cloaking
has
counterplay
and
it
doesn't
seem
to
be
ubiquitous
in
practice.
So
I
don't
really
buy
claims
that
cloaking
absolutely
everything
is
optimal
or
that
it
makes
it
impossible
to
know
what
is
going
on.
The
proponents
for
cloak
nerfs
seem
to
be
trying
to
prove
much
more
than
my
range
of
uncertainty,
so
I
must
not
share
the
same
premise
of
data
set.
I
started
off
with
the
hunch
that
cloaking
is
a
bit
too
good
so
I'm
looking
for
precisely
what
is
too
good,
and
ways
to
give
it
a
bit
more
counterplay.
It's
hard
to
get
that
from
this
thread
when
the
arguments
in
the
direction
of
my
hunch
are
mostly
arguing
in
spaces
far
beyond
it.
|
1 |
I
sort
of
find
myself
agreeing
with
@Jhopmemes
the
most
(
although
he
was
a
bit
rude)
.
I'm
not
looking
for
ways
to
remove
(
or
effectively
remove)
any
applications
of
cloaking.
A
lot
of
cloaking
has
counterplay
and
it
doesn't
seem
to
be
ubiquitous
in
practice.
So
I
don't
really
buy
claims
that
cloaking
absolutely
everything
is
optimal
or
that
it
makes
it
impossible
to
know
what
is
going
on.
The
proponents
for
cloak
nerfs
seem
to
be
trying
to
prove
much
more
than
my
range
of
uncertainty,
so
I
must
not
share
the
same
premise
of
data
set.
I
started
off
with
the
hunch
that
cloaking
is
a
bit
too
good
so
I'm
looking
for
precisely
what
is
too
good,
and
ways
to
give
it
a
bit
more
counterplay
(
which
could
involve
just
making
it
less
powerful)
.
|
| 2 |
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|
2 |
\n
|
| 3 |
Here is where I am at.
|
3 |
Here is where I am at.
|
| 4 |
* I don't see a significant amount of cloaker usage in my games. Each side will often have one or two cloaking a ball of units or for snitches, but 80% of fronts remain unclocked. So the claims that everything is cloaked in all games beyond a certain point don't ring true. I'm not playing the EU prime time games, but I randomly sampled one and didn't seem cloak do much there either. So on this point, I would want replays.
|
4 |
* I don't see a significant amount of cloaker usage in my games. Each side will often have one or two cloaking a ball of units or for snitches, but 80% of fronts remain unclocked. So the claims that everything is cloaked in all games beyond a certain point don't ring true. I'm not playing the EU prime time games, but I randomly sampled one and didn't seem cloak do much there either. So on this point, I would want replays.
|
| 5 |
* Variable costs or thresholds for cloakers seem too ugly to me. A lot of UI would be required to give people a good chance of understanding the mechanic, and it would seem to lead to a lot of accidental griefing. Having to clear the area of everything but your Lances, to save on energy drain or whatever, feels weird.
|
5 |
* Variable costs or thresholds for cloakers seem too ugly to me. A lot of UI would be required to give people a good chance of understanding the mechanic, and it would seem to lead to a lot of accidental griefing. Having to clear the area of everything but your Lances, to save on energy drain or whatever, feels weird.
|
| 6 |
* New decloak mechanics for area cloaking seem very tricky to get right. I could see them either deleting some applications of area cloakers, or doing very little in practice. For example, decloaking everything in an area cloaker when anything in the cloaker takes damage amounts to deleting cloakers for almost all uses. Decloaking when a nearby unit fires would do a bit, but I'm not sure if it would be enough.
|
6 |
* New decloak mechanics for area cloaking seem very tricky to get right. I could see them either deleting some applications of area cloakers, or doing very little in practice. For example, decloaking everything in an area cloaker when anything in the cloaker takes damage amounts to deleting cloakers for almost all uses. Decloaking when a nearby unit fires would do a bit, but I'm not sure if it would be enough.
|
| 7 |
* Relatedly, there isn't a clear line between strategic and tactical cloaking. Strategic cloaking is hurt by extra decloak mechanics because it can be possible to salvage a lost strategic cloak by sacrificing a few units, buying a few seconds to get into a better shape to fight. Powerful tactical cloaking ends up buffing strategic cloaking in practice because the latter tends to decay into the former. Keeping units dormant on the front line is also a fine use of cloaking, an arguably strategic.
|
7 |
* Relatedly, there isn't a clear line between strategic and tactical cloaking. Strategic cloaking is hurt by extra decloak mechanics because it can be possible to salvage a lost strategic cloak by sacrificing a few units, buying a few seconds to get into a better shape to fight. Powerful tactical cloaking ends up buffing strategic cloaking in practice because the latter tends to decay into the former. Keeping units dormant on the front line is also a fine use of cloaking, an arguably strategic.
|
| 8 |
* This isn't a fight vs base infiltration and cloaked Lance. I want both to be possible, and base infiltration isn't exactly an amazing mechanic either. I suspect it would get old if it were as common as cloaked Lance too.
|
8 |
* This isn't a fight vs base infiltration and cloaked Lance. I want both to be possible, and base infiltration isn't exactly an amazing mechanic either. I suspect it would get old if it were as common as cloaked Lance too.
|
| 9 |
* Being able to see enemy units does not invariably increase strategic complexity, as making plans with uncertain or incomplete information is more complicated than with full information. When you know everything, you don't need contingencies. I am fine with people hiding reserve units from Swift flyovers, it seems like a good use of cloaking.
|
9 |
* Being able to see enemy units does not invariably increase strategic complexity, as making plans with uncertain or incomplete information is more complicated than with full information. When you know everything, you don't need contingencies. I am fine with people hiding reserve units from Swift flyovers, it seems like a good use of cloaking.
|
| 10 |
* I don't worry much about frontline cloaking making it harder to know what the enemy has, because I don't think cloaking makes this significantly harder. With some poking and a bit of situational awareness it is fairly easy to have enough of an idea of what the enemy has to make plans. If you have seen a unit, or even a unit's projectile, and the unit hasn't died, then it is still alive. Keeping units completely hidden seems somewhat costly as they are dead metal until they fire. Using cloakers to not know about a Merlin before it fires is fine by me.
|
10 |
* I don't worry much about frontline cloaking making it harder to know what the enemy has, because I don't think cloaking makes this significantly harder. With some poking and a bit of situational awareness it is fairly easy to have enough of an idea of what the enemy has to make plans. If you have seen a unit, or even a unit's projectile, and the unit hasn't died, then it is still alive. Keeping units completely hidden seems somewhat costly as they are dead metal until they fire. Using cloakers to not know about a Merlin before it fires is fine by me.
|
| 11 |
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|
11 |
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|
| 12 |
My current feeling is that static cloakers would be the biggest offender in widespread cloak since a single cloaker can cover a decent chunk of a static front. They have enough area to simultaneously enable cloaked Snitches and a hard-to-snipe Merlin. Neither of these uses seem far too good on their own, but getting both in one unit, at the same time, could be a bit much. I see mobile cloakers used as more dedicated cloakers for single armies or Snitches. Spreading out to fight while under a mobile cloaker is tricky since armies want to fight as a concave, but have to position themselves convex to protect the cloaker. The current radius of 400 doesn't leave quite enough room in front of the cloaker.
|
12 |
My current feeling is that static cloakers would be the biggest offender in widespread cloak since a single cloaker can cover a decent chunk of a static front. They have enough area to simultaneously enable cloaked Snitches and a hard-to-snipe Merlin. Neither of these uses seem far too good on their own, but getting both in one unit, at the same time, could be a bit much. I see mobile cloakers used as more dedicated cloakers for single armies or Snitches. Spreading out to fight while under a mobile cloaker is tricky since armies want to fight as a concave, but have to position themselves convex to protect the cloaker. The current radius of 400 doesn't leave quite enough room in front of the cloaker.
|
| 13 |
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|
13 |
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|
| 14 |
So here is what I would try. Test it out on a test version host.
|
14 |
So here is what I would try. Test it out on a test version host.
|
| 15 |
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|
15 |
\n
|
| 16 |
Cornea:
|
16 |
Cornea:
|
| 17 |
* Jamming range 550 -> 600
|
17 |
* Jamming range 550 -> 600
|
| 18 |
* Cloaker range 550 -> 400
|
18 |
* Cloaker range 550 -> 400
|
| 19 |
* Cloaker origin can be shifted up to 200 away.
|
19 |
* Cloaker origin can be shifted up to 200 away.
|
| 20 |
Reducing the jamming range to 400 seemed a bit too sad, and perhaps moving the cloak origin is interesting. This actually makes Cornea able to cloak things further away than before, but not in a wide area.
|
20 |
Reducing the jamming range to 400 seemed a bit too sad, and perhaps moving the cloak origin is interesting. This actually makes Cornea able to cloak things further away than before, but not in a wide area.
|
| 21 |
\n
|
21 |
\n
|
| 22 |
Iris:
|
22 |
Iris:
|
| 23 |
* Jamming range 400 -> 360
|
23 |
* Jamming range 400 -> 360
|
| 24 |
* Cloaker range 400 -> 360
|
24 |
* Cloaker range 400 -> 360
|
| 25 |
The radius nerf might be a bit extreme, but the unit still looks useful. Fighting under one Iris will be particularly awkward, but it should be fine for strategic cloak. It may be worth decreasing its quite large decloak radius at some point.
|
25 |
The radius nerf might be a bit extreme, but the unit still looks useful. Fighting under one Iris will be particularly awkward, but it should be fine for strategic cloak. It may be worth decreasing its quite large decloak radius at some point.
|
| 26 |
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|
26 |
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| 27 |
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|
27 |
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|
Opinion: Being able to see the enemy is "cool"