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Alright, as the dude in here that actually travels for fighting games, I feel it is my duty to set some of this conversation straight.
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1 |
Alright, as the dude in here that actually travels for fighting games, I feel it is my duty to set some of this conversation straight.
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[size=4]Levels[/size]
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3 |
[size=4]Levels[/size]
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First of all, I have better arranged/simplified the levels in the first post, because there is no need for 12 of them.
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5 |
First of all, I have better arranged/simplified the levels in the first post, because there is no need for 12 of them.
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Level 0 - Mashing buttons.
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7 |
Level 0 - Mashing buttons.
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Level 1 - Reacting to what is in front of you on the screen.
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8 |
Level 1 - Reacting to what is in front of you on the screen.
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Level 2 - Thinking about your actions in terms of executional ability and routing.
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9 |
Level 2 - Thinking about your actions in terms of executional ability and routing.
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Level 3 - Considering stuff your opponent is likely to throw at you (usually referred to in situations as an OS), and your response.
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10 |
Level 3 - Considering stuff your opponent is likely to throw at you (usually referred to in situations as an OS), and your response.
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Level 4 - Actions taken outside of the game in order to prepare, such as labbing setups or counterpicking based on game balance. This generally can be considered as other preparation rather than deliberate actions in game.
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Level 4 - Actions taken outside of the game in order to prepare, such as labbing setups or counterpicking based on game balance. This generally can be considered as other preparation rather than deliberate actions in game.
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| 13 |
This is really all there is to it. Any other level above is simply a combination of these, or these levels combined into something else.
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13 |
This is really all there is to it. Any other level above is simply a combination of these, or these levels combined into something else.
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[size=4]RTS vs Fighting Games and why we really can't compare these two[/size]
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15 |
[size=4]RTS vs Fighting Games and why we really can't compare these two[/size]
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For this, I am going to present some truly strange evidence. I am going to tell you guys about a time I got high.
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For this, I am going to present some truly strange evidence. I am going to tell you guys about a time I got high.
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So, some non-ZK related background: I am a semi-pro fighting game player (formerly ranked world top 50 in a number of games), and I also have played a [i]lot[/i] of Smash Brothers. Like 4,000 hours plus. I have also likely put in some similar amount of time in Zero-K over the years, although I will never know because hour tracking was not a thing prior to Steam. Thus, it is not a stretch to say that I have about the same amount of time playing both.
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19 |
So, some non-ZK related background: I am a semi-pro fighting game player (formerly ranked world top 50 in a number of games), and I also have played a [i]lot[/i] of Smash Brothers. Like 4,000 hours plus. I have also likely put in some similar amount of time in Zero-K over the years, although I will never know because hour tracking was not a thing prior to Steam. Thus, it is not a stretch to say that I have about the same amount of time playing both.
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One year, at a New Year's party me and my friends (also competitive high ranking FG players) decided it would be a wonderful experience to get extremely drunk and high and try playing Smash. However, what we discovered is that for fighting games, a large part of the experience happens largely without any intentional thought, at least for experienced competitive players. We ultimately just ended up playing the game like normal, and we were all slightly surprised (and disappointed) the day after because of how little changed,
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21 |
One year, at a New Year's party me and my friends (also competitive high ranking FG players) decided it would be a wonderful experience to get extremely drunk and high and try playing Smash. However, what we discovered is that for fighting games, a large part of the experience happens largely without any intentional thought, at least for experienced competitive players. We ultimately just ended up playing the game like normal, and we were all slightly surprised (and disappointed) the day after because of how little changed,
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However, could I do the same thing for Zero-K? Absolutely not, and it doesn't really have anything to do with being an experienced player or not.
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However, could I do the same thing for Zero-K? Absolutely not, and it doesn't really have anything to do with being an experienced player or not.
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Zero-K is a game where much more individual thinking is required based on the situation you find yourself in. Unlike fighting games, it's quite hard to outplay your opponent in ZK on a technical level, as micro plays a much smaller (albeit present) part in the game. While it does matter, macro play in ZK is vastly more important, and it's much much harder to boil down macro play to the same type of flowchart we can simplify micro play into. That being said, I have to actually think quite hard every time I play Zero-K compared to fighting games, and the type of thinking I'm doing is largely different, so I feel as if the levels here might not directly apply too much.
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Zero-K is a game where much more individual thinking is required based on the situation you find yourself in. Unlike fighting games, it's quite hard to outplay your opponent in ZK on a technical level, as micro plays a much smaller (albeit present) part in the game. While it does matter, macro play in ZK is vastly more important, and it's much much harder to boil down macro play to the same type of flowchart we can simplify micro play into. That being said, I have to actually think quite hard every time I play Zero-K compared to fighting games, and the type of thinking I'm doing is largely different, so I feel as if the levels here might not directly apply too much.
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Now, someone has been reading this post and has been thinking, how is he going to drag Magpie into this discussion? Believe me, we are getting there.
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Now, someone has been reading this post and has been thinking, how is he going to drag Magpie into this discussion? Believe me, we are getting there.
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Zero-K is interesting because it takes intentional steps to limit some of the micro that could be present in the game in order to force the player to interact with the game in specific ways. In doing so, some of the generic logic about high intensity micro play being very good in ZK has to be interpreted in some unorthodox ways.
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Zero-K is interesting because it takes intentional steps to limit some of the micro that could be present in the game in order to force the player to interact with the game in specific ways. In doing so, some of the generic logic about high intensity micro play being very good in ZK has to be interpreted in some unorthodox ways.
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For example, for those of us who have been around for awhile, there used to be a projectile dodging widget. In response to someone making this, the devs actually went through the trouble to limit information avaliable to widgets (although a workaround was found by someone later on) and even though a PR was made to potentially add it to the main game, momentum for it died since adding that sort of high micro nonsense was bad for the game's balance.
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For example, for those of us who have been around for awhile, there used to be a projectile dodging widget. In response to someone making this, the devs actually went through the trouble to limit information avaliable to widgets (although a workaround was found by someone later on) and even though a PR was made to potentially add it to the main game, momentum for it died since adding that sort of high micro nonsense was bad for the game's balance.
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Fast forward to the year 2026, and we have a certain bird in our midst. On top of being somewhat annoying to fight en masse (although not particularly strong), it also happened to gain coincidental strengths through intensive micro, making it a very appealing unit to spam and micro around all the time. Thus, the unit was nerfed, and is now much harder to micro with due to having a lower HP pool.
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Fast forward to the year 2026, and we have a certain bird in our midst. On top of being somewhat annoying to fight en masse (although not particularly strong), it also happened to gain coincidental strengths through intensive micro, making it a very appealing unit to spam and micro around all the time. Thus, the unit was nerfed, and is now much harder to micro with due to having a lower HP pool.
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| 35 |
There
is
a
area
of
micro
that
ZK
devs
seem
willing
to
support,
but
we
can
safely
assume
that
most
micro
level
play
in
this
game
directly
involves
raiders
and
or
single
big
unit
micro
and
not
micro
in
terms
of
large
scale
armies,
although
perhaps
this
can
be
said
to
also
sometimes
exist.
Roping
back
into
the
levels
discussion,
this
sort
of
intentional
limitation
of
micro
play
and
the
directly
of
ZK
even
compared
to
other
RTS
games
and
then
the
[/i]
huge
leap
across
the
rift[/i]
to
compare
it
to
fighting
games
is
sometimes
not
very
compelling,
so
it's
very
hard
for
me
to
apply
this
same
principles
to
ZK
as
a
fighting
game
player.
For
example,
if
I
were
trying
to
apply
the
concept
of
high
low
strike
throw
(
4ways)
to
ZK,
I
cannot
think
of
a
real
comparison.
Plenty
of
tricks
exist
in
ZK
to
force
2
way
mix,
but
I
can't
really
think
of
anything
else
that
forces
a
real
4
way
scenario
like
FGs
do.
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35 |
There
is
a
area
of
micro
that
ZK
devs
seem
willing
to
support,
but
we
can
safely
assume
that
most
micro
level
play
in
this
game
directly
involves
raiders
and
or
single
big
unit
micro
and
not
micro
in
terms
of
large
scale
armies,
although
perhaps
this
can
be
said
to
also
sometimes
exist.
Roping
back
into
the
levels
discussion,
this
sort
of
intentional
limitation
of
micro
play
and
the
directly
of
ZK
even
compared
to
other
RTS
games
and
then
the
[i]
huge
leap
across
the
rift[/i]
to
compare
it
to
fighting
games
is
sometimes
not
very
compelling,
so
it's
very
hard
for
me
to
apply
this
same
principles
to
ZK
as
a
fighting
game
player.
For
example,
if
I
were
trying
to
apply
the
concept
of
high
low
strike
throw
(
4ways)
to
ZK,
I
cannot
think
of
a
real
comparison.
Plenty
of
tricks
exist
in
ZK
to
force
2
way
mix,
but
I
can't
really
think
of
anything
else
that
forces
a
real
4
way
scenario
like
FGs
do.
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38 |
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39 |
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40 |
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41 |
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42 |
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43 |
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44 |
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The twelve levels of cognitive reflection in RTS