Loading...
  OR  Zero-K Name:    Password:   

The twelve levels of cognitive reflection in RTS

8 posts, 140 views
Post comment
Filter:    Player:  
sort
Level 0 - just do stuff
Level 1 - trying to optimize your gameplay. Execution
Level 2 - reacting to what you see your opponent have
Level 3 - thinking that everything you do, your opponent could do
Level 4 - thinking about stuff that your opponent cannot do, that you can do.
Level 5 - thinking about stuff you can do to exploit what the opponent cannot do currently
Level 6 - trying to put the enemy in a position where you can exploit what they cannot do. Gameplan. Actual strategy.
Level 7 - knowing your opponents strategies or preferences and trying to make a gameplan to exploit that.
Level 8 - thinking about potential strategies that your opponent can do, and trying to choose a counter strategy. Mindgames. Counterpicking.
Level 9 - figuring the Nash Equilibrium for strategy choice. Falls back to level 1. Optimization.
Level 10 - figuring out what to practice before facing your opponent.
Level 11 - choosing your skills to practice depending on the metagame.
Level 12 - metagame misdirection. Tricking your opponents into practicing useless skills that are not relevant. Could be considered unsportsmanlike conduct
+3 / -0


19 hours ago
Similar to Yomi Layers in fighting games:
https://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/7-spies-of-the-mind
+0 / -0


10 hours ago
Is there a model where some of these can be collapsed? I like how yomi ends up as a cycle of four stages. Not saying this has to be simpler, but if it can be, it would nice to find a way.
+0 / -0


6 hours ago
I think what differs from fighting games is the time component.
I think you have to break down the thinking in more layers in RTS.

Fighting games resets to neutral state quite fast and often after a combo has been done.

The timescales and cycles of actions and reactions are quite short and limited in scope in comparison to RTS.
Most RTSes also have a fog of war where you can't see the exact state of the game at all time. Fighting also have hidden state in the sense that humans have reaction times and will have a delayed response to their opponents input/moves in the game.

If you see a Mace coming at your base early in a game of Zero-K, there several time sensitive strategic choices you have to make.

Information from the past.
When you spot the Mace, you can gauge when the enemy made the Mace and how all-in this rush is. If you are familiar with the map, you might even be able to tell if the enemy used their commander to boost out the Mace or not.
You should also have perfect information about your buildorder and how much you resources you spent on non-fighting units such as solar collectors, mexes and buildpower.

Information in the present.
When you spot the Mace, you can access all the information in the present to gauge a proper response.
Information about the enemy position is also important, as to whether the enemy commander is joining the Mace or staying behind and building economy. How early you scout the enemy is an overall strategic decision that goes into the metagame of Zero-K.

Information about the future.
You should be able to gauge when the enemy Mace will reach your base or expansion, and whether to pull back cons or the commander to protect your base, or just keep expanding. Pulling the commander to protect the base, might be the wrong decision if this is just a slow push to try and keep you from expanding and the enemy is ecoing behind this.



If I were to try and simplify this I would divide it into 4 components.
Execution
You
The opponent
The metagame

The most important part is arguably the metagame as it feeds back into all other aspects of gameplay.
However, gauging the "actual" metagame of an RTS is one of the most difficult parts of understanding the game.
Here I imagine the metagame applying to even small micro decisions such as raiding and jiggling of Glaives and stuff.
Glaive jiggling is strong specifically against Scorchers, so how good you are at Glaive jiggling, affects the Rover viability on many maps.
I find that when I play Helwor who likes to jiggle his Glaives a lot, I cannot let him just focus on one group against my Scorchers as that will make my Scorchers lose hard.
However, if I spread my Scorchers into several groups, it forces him to spread his attention and micro, as it is almost impossible to jiggle several groups of Glaives at once against my Scorchers.

So the pregame factory choice is affected by Glaive micro, which is affected by my opponents skill and multitasking, which can be countered by spreading up my Scorchers into several groups and multitasking them to avoid single group fights against Glaives.


+1 / -0
quote:
I find that when I play Helwor who likes to jiggle his Glaives a lot, I cannot let him just focus on one group against my Scorchers as that will make my Scorchers lose hard.
However, if I spread my Scorchers into several groups, it forces him to spread his attention and micro, as it is almost impossible to jiggle several groups of Glaives at once against my Scorchers.


Statements like this are proof that I'm still a lob. I'm looking at the levels going "I'm doing pretty well" and then read something like this and realize how bad I still am lmao. Appreciate the example.
+1 / -0

5 hours ago
Hm, having played SSBM competitively, I think that the prediction level is a lot more detailed in fighting games. If ZK had fighting game mechanics, a single glaive could beat a paladin if it just predicted all it's moves correctly.
quote:
Fighting also have hidden state in the sense that humans have reaction times and will have a delayed response to their opponents input/moves in the game.

It is fascinating how our brains can live in the future. I onced watched a match of SSBM on stream, where both opponents seemingly reacted without any delay. Suddenly, the CRT turned off and the 2 players needed around 300ms until that info showed in their faces. Basically, that input was unpredictable, so it took full time to react.
See also Ping Pong for a classic example of the brain having to anticipate where the ball is going.
+2 / -0

2 hours ago
USrankKnightshade

Don't worry that much, at your level you are doing a lot of this intuitively already.
+0 / -0
There's something off about this.

The points are relevant and some require more advanced knowledge than others, but imo there isn't a clear hierarchy.


A player with a level 2- thought process making decisive plays may often outperform a flawed mid-level player that just overthinks things and spreads itself too thin trying to react to or anticipate different threats (raiders here! skirmishers there! oh they have air too! ...)


+0 / -0