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Klube had [url=http://zero-k.info/Forum/Thread/3287]some thoughts[/url] about continuing to play past the point where you are losing. I'm starting a new thread because I'd like to discuss that [i]separately[/i] from any talk about about redesigning PlanetWars.
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Klube had [url=http://zero-k.info/Forum/Thread/3287]some thoughts[/url] about continuing to play past the point where you are losing. I'm starting a new thread because I'd like to discuss that [i]separately[/i] from any talk about about redesigning PlanetWars.
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[quote]I don't like people resigning just because they are likely not to win. This really bugs me because I'm not JUST playing to win, I'm also playing to play, and ending the game before I'm done is just bullshit. I want to see some scorched earth like play, where people are playing losing games just to bleed the enemy to death.[/quote]
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[quote]I don't like people resigning just because they are likely not to win. This really bugs me because I'm not JUST playing to win, I'm also playing to play, and ending the game before I'm done is just bullshit. I want to see some scorched earth like play, where people are playing losing games just to bleed the enemy to death.[/quote]
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I sympathize with this view. Playing ZK is fun, so why not keep playing even if you're in a lost position? Why not do the very best you can with what you have left? Put up a good fight right down to the last 'bot! Make 'em work hard for the win and make 'em pay for every inch of ground!
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I sympathize with this view. Playing ZK is fun, so why not keep playing even if you're in a lost position? Why not do the very best you can with what you have left? Put up a good fight right down to the last 'bot! Make 'em work hard for the win and make 'em pay for every inch of ground!
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... but then I thought more about it. I don't think that this sentiment, as good as it sounds, makes for a workable game design. The problem is this: once you're unable to win the game there is no other clearly articulable goal to pursue, and any such goal that you might set for yourself is inherently incompatible with the primary goal of the game.
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... but then I thought more about it. I don't think that this sentiment, as good as it sounds, makes for a workable game design. The problem is this: once you're unable to win the game there is no other clearly articulable goal to pursue, and any such goal that you might set for yourself is inherently incompatible with the primary goal of the game.
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Klube suggested that the losing player should try to maximize damage dealt and/or units killed, relative to damage taken or metal used or time spent. I could suggest some other goals: [b](a)[/b] [i]hold out as long as possible;[/i] [b](b)[/b] [i]minimize the number of units / amount of econ / size of territory that the enemy[/i] has when your last unit is killed; [b](c)[/b] [i]make something big and dramatic that will go out with a bang[/i] (spam a deathball or nukes or dets etc). You could probably come up with more yourself. In fact, everyone probably has their own different idea about what to do when you've effectively lost the game but don't want to just up and quit.
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Klube suggested that the losing player should try to maximize damage dealt and/or units killed, relative to damage taken or metal used or time spent. I could suggest some other goals: [b](a)[/b] [i]hold out as long as possible;[/i] [b](b)[/b] [i]minimize the number of units / amount of econ / size of territory that the enemy[/i] has when your last unit is killed; [b](c)[/b] [i]make something big and dramatic that will go out with a bang[/i] (spam a deathball or nukes or dets etc). You could probably come up with more yourself. In fact, everyone probably has their own different idea about what to do when you've effectively lost the game but don't want to just up and quit.
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But the game itself has only one goal: [b]destroy all the enemy units.[/b] Any of the above strategies are perfectly valid ways to do that. Some will be more effective than others in various situations, but none of them are [i]necessarily[/i] the "correct" goal to pursue. All of them are merely ways to accomplish the only true goal of destroying all the enemy units.
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But the game itself has only one goal: [b]destroy all the enemy units.[/b] Any of the above strategies are perfectly valid ways to do that. Some will be more effective than others in various situations, but none of them are [i]necessarily[/i] the "correct" goal to pursue. All of them are merely ways to accomplish the only true goal of destroying all the enemy units.
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[b]Suppose
we
settled
on
one
of
these
alternate
goals[/b]
as
the
"correct"
goal
to
pursue
once
you've
lost.
That
would,
however,
also
affect
the
way
you
play
[i]before[/i]
you've
lost,
and
in
my
opinion
that
would
degrade
normal
play
by
emphasizing
some
set
of
tactics
over
others
[i]out
of
proportion[/i]
to
the
degree
which
they
accomplish
the
main
goal
of
winning
the
game.
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[b][i]Case
One:[/i]
Suppose
we
settled
on
one
of
these
alternate
goals[/b]
as
the
"correct"
goal
to
pursue
once
you've
lost.
That
would,
however,
also
affect
the
way
you
play
[i]before[/i]
you've
lost,
and
in
my
opinion
that
would
degrade
normal
play
by
emphasizing
some
set
of
tactics
over
others
[i]out
of
proportion[/i]
to
the
degree
which
they
accomplish
the
main
goal
of
winning
the
game.
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[b]Suppose
instead[/b]
we
all
agreed
"Okay,
exactly
how
you
play
once
you've
lost
is
up
to
you,
but
it's
important
that
you
keep
playing.
Don't
give
up!
Keep
fighting!
It
doesn't
matter
what
you
do
but
at
least
do
[i]something[/i]!"
Sounds
good,
right?
But
the
problem
is
that
at
that
point
[i]you
are
no
longer
playing
a
game[/i].
Why
not?
Because
you
are
pursuing
a
goal
[i][b]that
your
opponent
does
not
know
and
that
your
opponent
is
not
trying
to
thwart.
[/b][/i]
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[b][i]Case
Two:[/i]
Suppose
instead[/b]
we
all
agreed
"Okay,
exactly
how
you
play
once
you've
lost
is
up
to
you,
but
it's
important
that
you
keep
playing.
Don't
give
up!
Keep
fighting!
It
doesn't
matter
what
you
do
but
at
least
do
[i]something[/i]!"
Sounds
good,
right?
But
the
problem
is
that
at
that
point
[i]you
are
no
longer
playing
a
game[/i].
Why
not?
Because
you
are
pursuing
a
goal
[i][b]that
your
opponent
does
not
know
and
that
your
opponent
is
not
trying
to
thwart.
[/b][/i]
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Once you've reached the point where you've clearly lost, you're no longer playing a game against your opponent. Instead, you're playing a game [i]with[/i] your opponent, and the game is "Hey, let's blow up stuff!". You're playing with toy soldiers.
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Once you've reached the point where you've clearly lost, you're no longer playing a game against your opponent. Instead, you're playing a game [i]with[/i] your opponent, and the game is "Hey, let's blow up stuff!". You're playing with toy soldiers.
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Which is fun.
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Which is fun.
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But it's not the game that people who signed up for Zero-K want to play.
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But it's not the game that people who signed up for Zero-K want to play.
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Consider chess. Expert players will recognize when they are in a losing position - down several pieces, for example - and resign long before the game would be over if they forced their opponent to actually checkmate their king. But suppose instead you said [i]"Chess is fun! I know there's no way I can win because I'm down a queen and two rooks but let's keep playing anyway. I'll do the best I can with what I've got left!"[/i]
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Consider chess. Expert players will recognize when they are in a losing position - down several pieces, for example - and resign long before the game would be over if they forced their opponent to actually checkmate their king. But suppose instead you said [i]"Chess is fun! I know there's no way I can win because I'm down a queen and two rooks but let's keep playing anyway. I'll do the best I can with what I've got left!"[/i]
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... What, exactly, would you try to do? You wouldn't be trying to win; you know that's impossible. Would you try to draw the game out as long as possible? Capture as many pieces as possible? Put the king in check as often as possible? Capture the queen?
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... What, exactly, would you try to do? You wouldn't be trying to win; you know that's impossible. Would you try to draw the game out as long as possible? Capture as many pieces as possible? Put the king in check as often as possible? Capture the queen?
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None of these have anything to do with the goal of the game. At best they are side effects. And if you decided to do any of them, your opponent won't try to stop you - he'll only do whatever is necessary to put your king in checkmate, and if that means allowing you to capture almost all of his pieces, well, so be it. He still wins.
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None of these have anything to do with the goal of the game. At best they are side effects. And if you decided to do any of them, your opponent won't try to stop you - he'll only do whatever is necessary to put your king in checkmate, and if that means allowing you to capture almost all of his pieces, well, so be it. He still wins.
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I think you can get style points for playing on past the point where the game is lost. I think it can be fun for both sides.
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I think you can get style points for playing on past the point where the game is lost. I think it can be fun for both sides.
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But I also think it can be frustrating and annoying for either side. Consider the chess game. If you were winning and the loser wanted to keep playing just so he could try to capture your queen... or if you were losing and the winner wanted to keep playing right down to the checkmate...
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But I also think it can be frustrating and annoying for either side. Consider the chess game. If you were winning and the loser wanted to keep playing just so he could try to capture your queen... or if you were losing and the winner wanted to keep playing right down to the checkmate...
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... whereas all you wanted to do was get the game over with [i][b]so that you could play another game of chess...[/b][/i]
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... whereas all you wanted to do was get the game over with [i][b]so that you could play another game of chess...[/b][/i]
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... wouldn't you be annoyed, too?
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... wouldn't you be annoyed, too?
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Playing On