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Map: FolsomDamDeluxeV4
 FolsomDamDeluxeV4
Title: [A] Teams All Welcome
Host: Nobody
Game version: Zero-K v1.11.6.6
Engine version: 105.1.1-1821-gaca6f20
Battle ID: 1684841
Started: 22 months ago
Duration: 82 minutes
Players: 14
Bots: False
Mission: False
Rating: Casual
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Team 1 Lost
Chance of victory: 52.3%
XP gained: 64
USrankLogix died in 81 minutes
CArankNotung died in 82 minutes
PHrankPLT_Marcus died in 79 minutes
USrankNajarn died in 82 minutes
USrankstrikeshadow died in 50 minutes
USrankjpiswar died in 82 minutes
PLrankZaks died in 82 minutes
Team 2 Won!
Chance of victory: 47.7%
XP gained: 80
PTrankraaar
USrankcabinboy
DErankmuha_toro
UAranksteelmor
USrankApostleRay
USrankSkepticalViews
RUrankCyberCat3
Spectators
USranksomekid
AUrankAdminAquanim
USrankMrJigglesGod
USranklshfi
CArankThe_Amazing_Pencil
USrankNighthawk44
chaplol
DErankdunno
USrankwildemind
USrankNate612
RUrankdot_dot
DErankrainbow31




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PTrankraaar
22 months ago
gg

- again, shockley stunning both large armies and big striders, paperweighting them
- roach launcher across map was the real superweapon

+2 / -0

DErankdunno
22 months ago
(edited 22 months ago)
In this game, shockleys basically single-handedly defeated:
  • 4 Palas
  • A detri, which was then domi'd
  • A giant shieldball
  • Various funnels and merlins
Shockley is a generic hard counter to virtually all units and heavily discourages using armies late game. It also introduces game-deciding randomness (sure it's partly prediction skill, but there remains a large element of chance). The entire mid-to-late game in large teams revolves around Shockley IMO.

Lobster is not enough; Shockley is cheap and they'll just spam more until you eventually slip up. Funnel is too expensive since a single one easily falls victim to this general purpose counter too. Running away on every silo launch isn't a very fun minigame, and it neuters your army offensively (and sometimes the launch sound gets lost when there's too much going on, I think).

I like the idea of making it disarm instead of EMP, or much shorter stun time (15s?), and/or cost increase. Shields might need a concurrent nerf.

PTrankraaar: I suggest felon vs ramped snitch. Sometimes picket works too (if they're not too fast), or wall.
+2 / -0
CZrankSilent_AI
22 months ago
(edited 22 months ago)
They are pretty costly, tho. To stun a paladin you need 2 shockleys, which is 1200 metal, which is more than 1/10 of the cost of a paladin. And, you are not guaranteed to hit, and you need to dive in with a lot of units to kill it. Shockleys might seem broken but if you stun a paladin on your third try, it is already 3600 metal - you could have a funnelweb/Dante/nuke missile instead of it. And, I think 3rd try is actually still pretty generous.
+1 / -0
AUrankStuey72727
22 months ago
Shockleys are one of the few things capable of countering massive balls of units, particularly shieldballs. They are one of the few things forcing players to (sometimes) spread their units. They are expensive too.

I do tend to agree that trying to dodge them constantly isn't super fun. I played a game where I was doing that...
+1 / -0

USrankCliver5
22 months ago
Shockleys are annoying? Sounds like fun.
+0 / -0

DErankAdminmojjj
22 months ago
quote:
Shockleys are annoying? Sounds like fun.


son, you have no idea. back in the day, shockleys where even homing. meaning hitting 100%. THAT was annoying.
+1 / -0
USrankNighthawk44
22 months ago
I think that shockley is merely a symptom of a much larger problem in late game Zk. Due to the nature of ZK not having "tiers", we end up having a very fragile meta in late team games. Blobs of aspis shrug off all but the heaviest of fire, ie 4+ merlin, superweapon, detri; and due to the fact that there are no tiers you end up naturally forming clumps of units to get the health pools and damage you need, and so pretty much every end game unit comp is a giant shieldball with felon, aspis, a couple random generic units that managed to survive until then, and then merlin, lance, funnelweb, pala, and cloaker. Really the only way to battle that is either create your own ball with identical composition, attempt to cloak bomb it, or nuke it. Shockley emerges because it doesnt require the enormous cost of building nuke, and it's also longer ranged then cloak imp or snitch, and also goes through shields which are impervious to everything else.
+0 / -0
USrankNighthawk44
22 months ago
Ultimately, I think ZK would be better off if it had sort of a functional "Tier 2"
Truly enormous assault units that could crack open these degenerate shieldballs with simple conventional firepower. Sure, price them at detri or above, but I really think an enormous walking superweapon would be more fun to play around than burying a superweapon behind a stalefront or the gigantic bloated shieldballs we see.
+1 / -0

DErankkatastrophe
22 months ago
The question is how shieldballs can get that big in the first place.
+0 / -0

PTrankraaar
22 months ago
(edited 22 months ago)
Maybe Aspis's just too strong, and striders too ineffective at powering through clumps of shields. I agree these should have more simple conventional firepower, namely detriment (the big arm cannons are specifically underwhelming), but disagree that there should be a t2 with more "raw" power than clumps of low weight units.
+1 / -0