i realized that economic payback pays dividends to the eco guy but not to the guy defending him. this is a bigger thing then it first seems player 1 -2k m on eco (gets it back) provides all players +2 m after player 1 takes back his metals player 2 defending army 2k m worth (gets nothing back from troops) (mex expand pays itself) provides all eco players peace .... player 1... oh look i got the singularity metal back im rich ill make a strider now... player 2... its been hell but i need survive even longer so the strider player 1 is making completes player 1... i kicked ass look at my score
+1 / -0
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not exactly true. eco payback is not constant and goes first to the builder. reasoning behind this, is payback for the investment of the eco building. after some time, this shifts to be distributed to the whole team equally. so in the end, the eco builder gets some 150% 60%? of the initial invest in total, before the equal wealth distribution kick in. the number 150% is just guessed, look it up in the code or the corresponding forum discussion. it is     GoogleFrog confirmed 60% ### note: back in the day before this was changed to the current state, it was WAY MORE EXPOTENTIAL for the eco guy. like reinvesting halves each singu. insane efficient and selfish, draining the own team dry.
+2 / -0
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i like that eco is shared but what i worry about is that eco investment doesnt pay the people defending the eco until after it pays the eco person.. and this return is then spent on a windfall project that takes along time to construct
+0 / -0
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Feels unfair to reward people that make eco specifically. Depends on details, which i'm not aware of, so the effect may be low enough that it's fine. examples: - game starts, people plop their factories and a bit of eco and move away without leaving any defense - fusions and singularity reactors with no terraforming or nearby defense - major structures or factory clusters with no shield 15 mins in - lacking AA coverage Resources other players spend plugging those holes get no refunds.
+2 / -0
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All that however is very hard to quantify and determine which player contributed how much to the defense of the eco if at all. Its much easier to reward people for building the thing in the first place. How would the game even determine which player defended the economy and how much they should get (a single lotus is not worthy of much payback).
+0 / -0
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imagine if payback based on damage delt could exist.. would the eco players want to foot the bill for the working class?
+0 / -0
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There's an audit widget called "ROI tracker", and it will help show that the number is 50%. If a player built a singu they will get 50% of the value of the singu returned to them over time via preferential overdrive dividends, i.e. player 1 owns a singu, player 2 does not,no other variables, at some specific time in the future player 1 will have gotten 10,000 metal via OD and player 2 would have gotten 8,000 metal from OD. and this trends to 16,000 to 14,000. The only problem I see here is singubots, who do nothing but reinvest in singus for diminishing overdrive return, who may tend to soak an ever increasing differential from the system, but if you want to complain about it use the ROI tracker to really understand how the income per second works, cause it's not gonna be 0.
+1 / -0
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To quote the wiki: quote:
Mexes produce base metal. The metal is split almost evenly, with more going to players who recently built a mex until 50% of that cost is paid off.
Overdrive produces some amount of metal. The metal is split almost evenly, with more going to players who recently built energy until 50% of that cost is paid off. There is no concept of personal overdrive.
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https://zero-k.info/mediawiki/index.php?title=Economy_Guide#Team_income_distributionEssentially, you get 50% back in OD of the initial cost of the E building. The other 50% is split evenly among team, and then the whole OD is split evenly among team. At best, you get half of what you put in if I get this right. The only observation I want to make about fast eco is that if your team is losing on all fronts and the "eco" player is still building singus, that team will lose. I am not a fan of players who "specialize" in a specific role and refuse to branch out no matter what. All the popular multiplayer games have "roles", or at least classes. People seem to think that being a thing and sticking to it no matter what is normal probably because that's how it's done elsewhere, but in RTS, it's just saying: Please counter me! I am showing you what I do and I guarantee that I will never adapt! That is the bigger drain on the team IMO. Not that they are rushing eco (although rushing singu on very small maps is often instant death), but rather that people are unwilling to assess the situation and provide value to the team. And let me be clear on that point. It's not that they didn't notice. They did notice. They respond to messages... they just straight up refuse to adapt.
+3 / -0
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quote:
imagine if payback based on damage delt could exist.. would the eco players want to foot the bill for the working class? |
Reclaim.
+2 / -0
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reclaim is good but tends to pay for attrition in lost units.. i dont think it covers costs of increasing the army mainly just the losses.. so if i spend 2k on troops i can maybe loose 1k troops and get 1k reclaim.. but i have to still replace those troops or ill loose the front.. unless the enemy is feeding or loosing battles then the metal you can make is good.. but after loosing a heap normally an enemy adapts and will more effectively counter attack of course if you can snowball reclaim into a bigger army thats op but in big team games front-lines need every last troop to push or hold.. reclaim is heavily contested often coming down to the last few units to secure it and almost all the metal is spent on rebuilding the army
+0 / -0
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I actually really like the current set up. The reason is basically that for the purple players particularly, it's rarely worth building eco as you need to be having an impact with your units. It makes it more feasible for those players to actually build eco when the team needs it, without punishing the team too much (the purple player will only have 2k less metal rather than 4k).
+0 / -0
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The payback is actually 60% now. But also, I'm not going to be convinced that any two people here have the same concept of the system and its implications until someone runs some controlled tests on NullAI teams and posts them here.
+4 / -0
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I think building eco, and getting a grid up is important for a team unless it's an unusually resource poor map. Some games I will stagnate a lane and then build a singu, increasing our grid strength from purple to green. Having a green or yellow grid connected to most of your controlled mexes can be an excellent investment and often gives your team the edge to win. It takes skill to recognize when to build units and contest territory, and also when to consolidate what you have and start focusing on grid, singus, antinuke, super, etc. Often players end up stuck in one of those modes, either piling up units that wont have any use and die or feed metal, or continually building some project instead of gaining or reclaiming lost territory and mexes.
+1 / -0
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quote:
The payback is actually 60% now. But also, I'm not going to be convinced that any two people here have the same concept of the system and its implications until someone runs some controlled tests on NullAI teams and posts them here.
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Wouldn't be surprising. Most people don't understand that not connecting a singu to the grid when the team spends more than 225 energy doesn't make the team lose overdrive. The simple fact the singu is built, even not connected, provides the overdrive by spending its energy on build/repair/reclaim/cloak/shield while the other sources are redirected to overdrive. Mind you it's probably a good idea to always connect singu, but I've seen quite a few games people complaining a singu isn't connected and losing OD, all the other energy sources are connected and the team's E spending is above 225. Also, you can get an overdrive boost using storage. Yet, if you build any, most players instantly complain they are useless. Arguably the boost is offset by the spending burst, however.
+1 / -0
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quote:
Also, you can get an overdrive boost using storage. |
The only long term boat to overdrive is going to be any thing that makes energy spending via overdrive as consistent as possible. It's better to spend 10e/s for 2 seconds on overdrive than to spend 20e in 1 second and 0 e the following second. Burst spending will cause a "loss" of overdrive efficiency in the long term, and I've seen that happen in game. 40m/s income, 80 e/s income, building glaives on repeat from a factory, considering unit roll off time, will cycle between spending like 80 e on construction and 80 e on overdrive, instead of a consistent 40. Cause overdrive is square and whatever, it's about a 1.41:2 ratio difference, or a 30% efficiency bleed. Solve this by building a plate.
+0 / -0
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quote:
The only long term boat to overdrive is going to be any thing that makes energy spending via overdrive as consistent as possible.
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I'm not sure that's true. Wasn't the way energy reserve builds been changed so that if you haven't reached your E storage cap, you don't spend 100% of your extra E in filling the storage? That means you can have some stored E, flash spend it without completely cutting your OD and have it refill also without completely cutting OD.
+1 / -0
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