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Story and single-player missions.

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12 years ago
After some time spent fiddling with the mission editor, I would like to try and make some story-driven missions. Problem is, for that we need a story.

I found some backstory here :
http://code.google.com/p/zero-k/wiki/Story

Is it still up-to-date? There are quite some big points I would like to discuss about this story, and the forum seemed to be a better place for that than the wiki.

So, about the story itself.
According to Burnside's Zeroth Law (see http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/prelimnotes.php#zerothlaw ), it's a bad idea to speak about 'silicon ships' instead of human (or other) beings. So in a setting with only machines fighting each-other, they have to be sentient and not just mindless programs following their programming.
The problem is, such a world where there are only (sentient) machines left whose only goal is to exterminate each-other, there isn't much to do and keep the player involved. What is the point? Once they will have exterminated all their enemies, then what? If it ever happens. If it will never happen, what is the point in fighting? To be able to continue to fight? It wouldn't exactly catch the interest of most players.
A setting like that, basically Warhammer 40k with only Necrons left, wouldn't be the best to create story-driven missions, as the driving force, conflict, seems quite pointless. Also, it would probably be quite a poor setting, story-wise.

The other problem with a machine-only setting is that it's harder for the player to identify to the character. A world with only machines would be so different to what we know today that a player wouldn't have much marks, and would feel alien to it. Or it would be like our world, but then having machines would be quite pointless too (and then feel like bad writing). We don't know how artificial intelligences would work (which would also make it harder to write), but they would have to be quite different from us.
That's why there is often, if not always, a human-like character that the player or spectator can relate to. They don't have to be the hero, though they have to be important enough in the story. They also don't have to be human. Cyborgs, uploaded minds, artificial intelligences specifically built to be human-like (e.g. androids) can also work.
But it means that there have to be some human or human-like being left in the setting.


Now, about the realism, or, more exactly, about the believability.
Saktoth seems to have at heart that the mechanisms themselves of the game are believable enough. Indeed, a believable system helps to the immersion. That's why there are justifications about the capability of a commander to build an entire army (nanotech) and why commanders are sent alone (very hard to send mass over interstellar distances).

The problem is, it's not enough. Here, fridge logic begins to kick in, and can't be waved away with the "it's not meant to be reality-like", like would do a StarCraft.
For example, if they can build an army in a matter of hours, why isn't every commander arriving somewhere greeted with a nuclear hail? After all, in days, the entire planet should be covered with silencers, doomsday machines and big berthas.
Or, if they can send a commander, why don't they send a micro black-hole or other planet-buster instead? If they are in total war, it would be easier to destroy the enemy planet, or at least slag its surface. After all, they can rebuild it after.
I spent some time thinking about that while (and after) playing Supreme Commander, who precisely failed to answer those problems. Which is one of the main reasons why the single-player campaign didn't work, which is in turn why the game itself didn't fare better, but I digress.

And yet, by changing the setting, we can make Commander warfare far more believable.
The easiest way, IMO, is to see Commanders as advanced paratroopers instead of main WMD. See, you send a Commander when you want to take an area fast, before the enemy has time to reinforce it. After some hours, you have a foothold. The brute-force battles would be done with starships, fixed battlestations and other massive and slow/immobile weapons.
And why aren't planets covered with units? Because the units of a Commander break down after days, if not hours. Commanders occupying a place have then to spend time repairing their units. And while resources are unlimited in the scale of a battle, after days, metal points and others begin to dry out. (We can always handwave that others somehow reappear to explain why the entire galaxy isn't depleted yet.) So after a while, the Commander can't maintain its army. If we want, we can also add some wear and tear on the Commander itself, meaning that it has to stop from time to time to repair itself, and then can't efficiently repair its army non-stop.
It would mean that anyone arriving hours late against an enemy commander is screwed, but if you arrive weeks late, you have a chance.
We also have an explanation about the starting zones. If they are teleported, they can only be teleported there because (technobabble). Same explanation about why commanders of both sides are teleported at the same time. If they are thrown from orbit, that's the only window where your ship can send you without you being shot down (or even detected) during the descent.
There are ways to refine those explanations, but here are the basis.

The interesting point is, it allows for more varied missions.
For example, instead of having the two commanders arriving at the same time, the attacker arrives alone, while the defender already has some installations and units in the map. On the other hand, the defender arrives later, and can not begin to build right away.
You also have time-limited missions. You have to destroy an anti-aerospace field generator before your fleet has to retreat from orbit, letting it open to enemy ships who will carpet-bomb you from there. Inversely, you have to resist long enough for your ships to come and carpet-bomb them. For the ships, just create icon-less units at the maximum possible height. You can even create units with placeholder or even no 3D-model, as the players wouldn't see them anyway. But you could then use them for attacks from the sky.

The problem with story-driven single-player is that we will need some models in addition to the ones used in multiplayer. Some civilian units and buildings, maybe even super-lowpoly humans; some non-Commander-built units and buildings, possibly bigger and more powerful than anything a Commander has. Anti-aerospace installation, also.
With those, it would open many possibilities. We can have attack/defence of civilian settlements and cities; we can have more complex defence systems... We could even have missions where you have to fight lone super-powerful units instead of (or in addition to) hostile Commanders.
If we have starship models, we can even have cutscenes with space battles. A huge empty map, invisible water, skybox with the planet drawn on it, some scripts, and we can have starships fighting each-other across massive distances, and even firing at/be fired at from the planet.
(In an ideal world, the models and textures would be re-done so their looks are more coherent with each-other, but this is not and ideal world anyway.)


Now, here's a setting that would work well IMHO, for example.
The hero is a mercenary. Mercenaries are far cooler in SF than IRL. Also, as such he would be quite removed from the varied worlds, and then learn about them at the same time than the player. He's a young one (so he has more to learn - like the player), in the fringe of the Galaxy (where stuff happens, not like in the ordered and locked 'civilised' parts), and work with an older one who teach him what he knows (and then we have our tutorials).
They have missions like, protecting settlements against local bandits/pirates, chickens, or even armies when caught in the middle of a war. They are also recruited by the local powers to help in their wars, as they are well-trained professionals with good equipment.
The overarching story could be about finding what are the chickens, and where they are from. Or it could be about a large conflict growing and threatening the entire region, where the hero would have to make difficult choices. Or it could be about a dark conspiracy set by ancient sentient machines (say, the Zero-K), trying to get their hands on lost artefacts without anyone suspecting them. Or all those linked together.
You don't have everything unlocked at first, because those technologies are expensive, or even experimental (Singularity reactor), and not everything is installed on your Commander.
Across the Galaxy, there are also major powers. Their movements and conflicts are not wars, at the scale of the hero. They are natural disasters. Fortunately, they will often pay no attention to the inhabitants of the fringes, and avoid being involved to keep things simpler for them (and overextend). Yet, there can be shady operations from those, trying to influence the locals for their own unfathomable purposes. It can be by causing wars, preventing them, secretly helping one side...
We could even have a mission with those fighting each-other with gigantic all-powerful units while paying no attention to you and your opponents, but destroying/terraforming a part of the map in their battle, or leaving incredibly rich wreckages around from time to time.
Such a setting (very summarised here) gives lots of potential for varied missions, but also compelling stories.

Thoughts?
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USrankZag
12 years ago
I like the Merc idea. This allows more interesting scenarios and twist in the storyline. I agree that there needs to be more stuctures to add more interesting gameplay. As for the actual storyline, there would be a lot more potential in human controlled battles (still fought with robots) vs. semi emotionless AIs that want to kill eachother. Different human and/or sentient alien factions could each have a piece of technology that the player obtains by defeating them or something they gives as a part of the Merc contract.
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WALL OF TEXT

Will read later

EDIT: spent 15 minutes reading 50 posts
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In my opinion one of the challenges of a Zero-K campaign will also be the fact that there is only 1 faction. In games like Supcom, Total Annihilation, and Starcraft, there are multiple factions, and faction-stereotypes that are easier to indentify with (like 'protoss are wise', 'core is cold and calculating', etc).

Perhaps custom units in the campaign would be a good way to give the opposing parties some distinct flavor.
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12 years ago
There should be a consistent color theme for different factions.
If I take a PW campaign mission, Ascended has to be the green player, Liberated Humanity the green player, etc.

Another way to add consistency, are base layouts.
Each faction should have favorite facs and prefer either wind or solars, etc.
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There were many story proposals.. I also believe that the main character should be human.

personally i would like the main protagonist to be a woman revived/rescued by robots. Robot faction would then protect or even worship her and she would embark on a path of discovering the past and breaking the cycle of destruction or even reuniting with survivng humans.

I would like to build on contrast of emotional human vs cold machines.

Story could retrospectively tell events from "PlanetWars" past when combat machines were created.

There are many possible twists to the story - like commanders having simulated personalities of real human (that got lost over centuries) etc.

----------------------

Leaving aside the nihilism of most proposals i would prefer much more lively universe with humans (humans in commanders at leasts), habitable planets and a story that does not take itself too serious - parody/humour style.

For example human could be stranded with long forgotten combat machines that are too retarded and
only thing they can do well is a suicidal combat. As the human (safe because machines would never harm him/her) would try to convince machines to do somethig useful for him (like make a transmitter, build a spaceship), retarded machines would spontaneously engage in mindless destruction of their peers, throw half finished spaceship on other bots using newtons, use transmitter to blow heads of enemies, ride wild chickens etc.. basically try to turn anything into a deadly weapon amd backstab each other at every opportunity.
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12 years ago
Really, who wants a story centered around talking meats? Even sentient talking meat.

http://www.terrybisson.com/page6/page6.html
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Why do they have to be emotionless robots? They can be emotional robots. I mean, to go with the heat-death-of-the-universe concept, they could be the uploaded consciousness of people whose corporeal bodies died billions of years ago, squabbling over the last functional solar systems in a black galaxy.

It would even work for the tutorial mode:

"welcome back, combat-mind. I'm afraid we had to recycle our memory storage during the long low-power sleep of interstellar travel in order to survive the long trip... so we're starting from scratch a bit here. The research minds are all set to re-construct our inventory of designs once we start finding some hostiles to study, but at this point we haven't got much to work with. Even though your memory is gone, we think your intincts should still be there. Let's get started - there's some hostile indigenous creatures inhabiting this asteroid, and we need to establish a base of operations". Begin a comm-only mission of eco and defense against chickens.

CZrankAdminLicho - yeah, I loved the wacky theme of CA. A funnier plot would always be best... but the whole "heat death of the universe" thing implied by the name does tend to lend itself to nihilism.
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The Zeroth law is about interesting characters, with drives, motivations, etc. Meat or machine, they need personality. Lots of hard sci-fi has robot characters.

There are three things that make this possible:
1. Robots will be subject to the same evolutionary processes that made us (survival and reproduction), and will thus develop in similar directions.
2. They will be programmed by us, with hard-coded irrational tendencies that can bloom into complex personality.
3. A human brain can be simulated on a machine just as easily as anything else.

The story will basically be you waking up millions of years after the Planet Wars (the sequal to the plot) you were sent to fight in have ended, and finding out what happened to the universe, how each of the civilizations died out (robot uprising, accidental nuclear obliteration, consciousness uploading, etc), discover the current robot factions and their philosophies (Robot liberation, human worship, etc) and eventually decide the fate of this universe.

This can either take the perspective of a female protagonist who is the last human (as far as she knows). Or it can take the perspective of a robot who is now questioning his mission and his programming since he was sent to war by a dead civilization (I think you can seriously 'humanize' this character).

The female human works because A. You have 'cover art', a pretty face to use in advertising etc (which makes me feel bad because feminism) B. You have a strong female protagonist (which is good because feminism).

It is IMPORTANT in this story that you are not some nameless henchman being ordered around by talking heads ala Starcraft, C&C, and every RTS. You are the commander, you decide the whole course of the war.


Now, to the hard sci-fi fluff.

1. FTL communication is impossible.
2. Only the commander is autonomous.
3. Commanders are ancient tech, which cannot be reproduced, with teleportation capacity built-in.

The humans that constructed them where well aware that an infinitely self-replicating war machine would consume all the resources in the galaxy in no time flat. The commander has immense and terrifying capacity for destruction, but was designed explicitly NOT to be a exponentially self self-replicating grey-goo machine sent to gobble up every resource in the galaxy.

This is why worlds arent clogged with structures. As soon as a commander teleports to a new world, all the stuff there goes offline (Or, even, blows up to prevent enemy salvage). This is also why they have limited blueprints of units (And you will get more from your enemies, as you play)- the designs are from the planet wars, they aren't 'New Research by your R&D department' (Which is a particular RTS conceit I find moronic).

The sort of weapons you're talking about, planet busters and FTL-capable ships (Which would be PHENOMENALLY expensive, given how advanced just one commander is) etc, probably had a place towards the end of the Planet Wars before the humans all killed eachother off, but obviously they never gave the commanders the blueprints to build these things, they kept a human finger on the big red button, as it were. Getting your hands on this ancient tech could serve as the plotline to some missions.

So why do commanders teleport onto the same battlefield simultaneously? Because nobody is going to come to a camped planet. If you want to fight an enemy, you have to wait until he jumps in and then jump in yourself quick smart before he builds up.

Edit: Another justification for this is that before you land, the world is bombarded by sky lasers and everything obliterated, but then every single battle would take place in a smoking crater and the ground war would be rather meaningless (IE, if you lose, you bombard and try again). Maybe something like this can form the later missions though...
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12 years ago
I think that you dont have to explain appearance of commanders on planet and that teleporting commander of army sounds like a ridiculous OTA/Supcom ripoff..

Why cant commander arrive in ship?

Regarding emotions and robots - thats nonsense.. you can read some texts about how unlikely this is to arise in robots..

Animals have mothers and reproduce on highly personal level in small groups.. robots would likely reproduce in automated factories..
there is no reason for emotions to evolve in combat robots and if it happens it will be nothing like humans..
(Fear, paranoia are possible.. love? Jealousy? Who needs that..)

In short unless you have human-like society with families, near identical "units" and complex organization of work you wont get human-like emotions.
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Not everyone is a vitalist like you Licho. Even if that position was tenable in the slightest, it's so ill defined that there is no saying that a machine cannot acquire it. A machine capable of running a complete simulation of a human brain would be capable of human thought in any assessable way. Either way, since carbon is such an incredibly versatile element capable of forming such long molecular chains it's quite likely that future machines will end up using something that resembles biology a lot.

Love, family, loyalty, etc is just a hard-coded extension of the reproductive imperative.

Commander cannot arrive in ship because then why not put death lasers on the ship? We can make the ship more 'lost, unreproducable technology' if you want but I don't get what it adds to the game. IMO everything taking place within the engine and no war going on 'behind the scenes' is what makes our OTA legacy great. We have this stuff in PW because it's relevant, but in the single-player campaign unless you are going to write a really interesting space combat engine why would there be ships? The commander currently teleports down (with a factory) and I see no reason to change that.

Sorry, ThornEel, but Licho and I have been arguing about this stuff for years. I knew he'd post the same thing again when we started discussing it. I've already said it's okay to have a human protagonist you don't have to keep going on Licho.
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12 years ago
I also think you dont need human emotions into the story.
What I read from the old backstory on the wiki seems quite good to me.
It can be like the Robots need advanced supercomputers (aka the player) to control their ever growing army.
And that the AI need some testing (tutorial) before applied to the complex battlefield mechanics.
Different organisations have made an satelite in the past and due to the engineered AI it tries to control/destroy every other hostile threat.
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12 years ago
>I also think you dont need human emotions into the story.

This is one of the reasons that TA never sold as well as SC. The game was simply about robot faction A (The ARM AKA "good guys") vs robot faction B (the Core AKA "bad guys"). Technically, the game was superior to SC in almost every way, but it had an extremely weak storyline with no emotions.

Starcraft, on the other hand, had an inferior engine with MUCH better art direction and a great storyline. There weren't clear-cut "good vs bad" lines - there were a lot of shades of grey. It's difficult to feel emotions about robots, and the only way you'll get emotional draw is to make them anthropomorphic. Wall-E, for example, has emotional draw because he is

A)Cute
B)Has very human emotions

If you had made him a killing machine with human emotions, the result would be much different.

Anyways, I think Licho's storyline is a good idea, but it would need to be significantly fleshed out. What if the human was found drifting in a stasis pod? It's a little cliche, though....
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What about a lone survivor in a stasis pod in some mining ship (in peace time), and... on the ship's launch bay there lie dormant a robotic exoskeleton (commander) which can halo drop which is often used to build mining outpost in the dark space of asteroid which is (typically) equipped to handle some chicken infestation (which is always was a prevalent threat at that time (for the mining operation I mean))... Soo the actor are now in stasis waiting for re-animation at nearest drop point.

Unfortunatly (upon awakening) the protagonist realize that his whole civilization (the place where people live) was total annihilated by rogue AI (CAI) and now embracing a prospect of being alone in the universe... Upon landing on target asteroid, the protagonist will typically set an outpost and defence against some chicken infestation...

After realizing economic/military/infrastructure autonomy (which suppose to happen), the protagonist began constructing a quantum gate which typically be used to teleport the mined ore to the nearest colony, but now he realize the grim truth that it would be him vs CAI... The hero place himself and the exoskeleton on the teleporter and in a blink of an eye he appeared on the war torn colony (now it is battle against one of the many splinter of CAI forces).

The hero jump from one solar system to another, encountering various CAI or chicken infestation until it reach one place that he wanted to be (home)... Now he must destroy the CAI once and for all in a final battle that forever determine the future of human race!
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12 years ago
ok, so now we got all this
HOW do you explain chickens?
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12 years ago
Biological warfare run amok? One side decided it would be a good idea to breed biologicals with instinctive combat nature and set them loose on the opponent territory.

Chickens evolved from them.
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I think >>
Chicken is alien species created to destroy all living organic lifeform. But one day its creator crash on an uncharted planet and since then its been killing all non-chicken lifeform...

*I post same time as jseah xD*
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12 years ago
nice ideas, but what came first:

chicken or the egg?
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12 years ago
Definitely the chicken. Grand master plan was to make chickens that would mindlessly swarm enemy defences so robots could exploit the opportunity.

The chickens spread out of control and evolved the other forms of chickens we see today. They also now suck metal out of the ground to grow carapace, and this metal is what is left in a chicken egg when it dies.
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12 years ago
hmm ok, but how do you explain the shield chicken?
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