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Jacks can attack while submerged - intended?

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So why does the jumpbot factory receive a bot that can fight while submerged? Only ships and amp bots have those units otherwise; ships only 1 such unit. Most factories' bots cannot even see submerged units/structures let alone attack while submerged themselves. I'd go into how it's already probably the strongest factory, but that's not really relevant.

The question is why give that ability to jacks, and not other land units? E.G. what about all projectile bots - after all water is not going to stop a projectile, maybe slow it down, but not stop it?

It really gets annoying with newton thrown jacks reking economy with no counter except massive faraday/newton coverage or somebody having an a few armies of gnats waiting for it. Might as well just remove anti-nuke from the game because flying jacks can do just as much damage at less cost than a trinity. The amount of faraday/newton coverage necessary to stop flying jacks/units far exceeds the cost of a couple anti-nukes. The counter to doomsday weapons, which is what flying jacks are, needs to be less expensive than the weapon itself. The newton ramp to launch costs about 1.5k metal and you'd need about 1k metal in defense over any economy to stop the jacks - a much more expensive proposition than building 2-3 anti-nukes to cover an entire battlefield.
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3 months ago
All three melee units in ZK can attack underwater. This is intentional afaik.
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3 months ago
Melee units can attack underwater because it makes a bit of sense, doesn't affect much of the game, and makes sunken economy vulnerable to Jack. Perhaps try Lobster or not putting your economy underwater. I'm happy with the amount of counterplay between lategame economy and Newton ramps.
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3 months ago
My dream is to one day have the micro skills to launch a Djinn with a Newton and ramp, teleport a Lobster and a Jack into the air, use the Lobster on the Jack, then have the Jack jump. One day! Small smile.
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Except it's not late game economy - a submerged geo on Isis is about the first 10mins of the game and a newton ramp takes about the same time. http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/1022127 both geos blown by flying jacks 16mins into the game.
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3 months ago
nono, googlefrog makes a good point

As long as you can maneuver a Lobsterright next to the pit, you are entirely capeable of tossing the jack out of the water. Then your response is to use gnats/a couple raiders or locusts to end it.
Granted it's very rough to force someone to be 100% focused in response to a focused player microing cheese in the backline, it's now much more forgiving given factory plates exist.
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Jumpbots aren't strong. They have units that are really strong in isolation, in specific circumstances. The factory as a whole plays poorly without support from another factory.

I can't say I see either underwater jack or flying jack happening a lot. Its a semi-common strategy in field of Isis due to the relatively short distances of the map and the presence of juicy adv fusions in a predictable location right in the middle of the enemy's base. I'm not sure if I have ever seen flying Jack anywhere else.

It does get annoying that you're pretty much gonna need someone on permanent Jack-hunting duty to counter the jack flinging fanatic in the other side. One might argue Scythe does the same thing, except worse because Scythe squads are way more viable in most maps than jack flinging.

Also, to be honest, sinking things underwater in Field of Isis feels like an exploit itself, since very few units can attack underwater. If flying jack is an exploit, sinking stuff in dry maps is an even greater one.
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3 months ago
i dont like orbital jacks,because i cant defend against them and agaisnt silo at same time,shoot jack right on top of singu/moho GG.
On isis if you dont bury geo your gonna get tac nuked 100%,then you loose.If i dont burry geo to defend against orbital jacks or morph geo then make lobster throw it in next to moho,then switch to gnats,thats a lot of things you need to do.Not to mention you have to become this human radar allways just looking at the screen waiting for the next jack like a retard
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3 months ago
quote:
i dont like orbital jacks,because i cant defend against them and agaisnt silo at same time

Actually if you wall your singu instead of burying it underwater, i think you can achieve protection against both.

Aboveground terrawall plus shield is very difficult to get through with Silo even before you get to Funnel shields that completely defeat Quake forever.
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One might argue that people ought to adapt their econ strategy to the map.

Everyone knows the geos are hard to defend in the Field of Isis. There's the option of not upgrading them, or making sure to not build anything near them.

Also, you can spread fusions all over your base, or you can make sure your singu is far away from anything else in case it explodes. You can place your singu far from the center so that jack ramps, which can't aim, can't fire jacks near your singu, since the're usually aimed so that they can fire jacks at the enemy's geo.
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quote:
jack ramps, which can't aim

Indeed, jack ramps cannot aim.

But technology has advanced.

Lobster pedestal based launchers can shoot 360 degrees.
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3 months ago
quote:
jack ramps, which can't aim

both jack ramp and jack lobster can aim...
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3 months ago
Can't say I have seen a jack ramp that can aim, I'd like to know the design.

Never heard of lobster pedestals.
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3 months ago
not the design, but how you use it, you put the jack alittle bit left or right, or you not use some of the newtons
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quote:
Lobster pedestal based launchers

https://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/1014304

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3 months ago
To the points:

1. Flying jacks happen on lots of maps - they delete fusion plants (killing 2 makes cost for the ramp, jack, & a few swifts to scout).

2. A jack laughs at anything less than 8-10 raiders and even then can often kill a fusion, some mexes, and several raiders.

3. The jumpbots are a strong factory 1v1 - pyro beats all raiders; very strong toad; a well played jug. eats tanks (even cyclops), all raiders, bombers, crabs, shieldballs, many skirmishers, and proc (except faraday). Grizzly, Nimbus (but toad hard counters the Nimbus), and lance are good against the jack, but otherwise it takes striders or lots of well played skirmishers or stun bots. Moderators are great skirmishers with a very high alpha strike. A high skill level factory no doubt, but very very strong on all but water maps (which is part of the reason that jacks should not fight submerged).

4. Flying jacks are much stronger and require much less micro and much less risk than scythes. Just spend 1k metal on lotus turrets or a couple stingers and you can pretty much shut scythes down. I.E. you can counter scythes for far less than they cost - plus spend almost no micro countering them. Further, scythes must walk clear across the map to be useful while jacks fly as fast as an after-burning swift. Additionally, scythes will cannot hit submerged economy or even walled economy while jacks can hit both (unless you very accurately throw the scythes I suppose).

5. Jacks jump walls (even if it takes multiple jumps) or into water so I don't understand the idea that walls can stop them.

Basically, the problem is that the low-risk high-reward flying-jack tactic costs too little micro and metal.

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quote:
Basically, the problem is that the low-risk high-reward flying-jack tactic costs too little micro and metal.


The launcher for large maps costs more than a dante. The jacks themselves cost 600 a pop and some major attention to precision hit fusions. It is not "low-risk" at all. Let's review all the component pieces:

1.) Your jack must launch at a specific angle and speed. If this fails, your ramp is revealed and your next success chance is reduced.

2.) Your jack must safely land at a specific spot with no defenses. Failure in part 1 reduces impact and risks donating 240m (-840m worth of initiative)

3.) Your jack must now kill at least 840m worth of stuff in the enemy base otherwise you have not made cost. (Enemies get 100% of reclaim)

4.) An attentive air player risks complete shutdown before completion of the launcher.

For the launcher itself to make cost, you need to achieve at least 50% of its value in economic or strategic damage plus 840m per jack. For a standard lobster launcher, this is 800 + 340 + ~4200 = 5340 / 2 '= 2670 + 840 per jack to make cost.
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3 months ago
If some air players wouldnt be playing with closed eyes and keep some ravens in the back the whole jack launcher issue wouldnt exit.

Go raven and thy 4 the metal.
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quote:
On isis if you dont bury geo your gonna get tac nuked 100%,then you loose.If i dont burry geo to defend


No wonder that RUrankFirepluk always told that on Isis map geo morph is trolling.


quote:
If some air players wouldnt be playing with closed eyes and keep some ravens in the back the whole jack launcher issue wouldnt exit.


Right i have resources as air player to build 8 ravens which all time idle waiting jacks. Maybe its like more then 2k metal just flying around and waiting random jack? And later same player will cray that air is useless because his scylla was bombed by enemy ravens because his own teammate had no figters because he had to build ravens to counter flying jacks?
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Actually if you do the math killing 1 fusion is usually not worth it at all. assume the enemy reclaims.

eco player lose a fusion (-1000m, -1000e, -1000bp), but gain a jack wreck (+240m, -240bp), a fusion wreck (-400m, -400bp) and a swift scrap (+30m, -30bp)
total:
330m lost
1000e lost
1670 bp used

jack yeeter lose a jack (-600m, -600e, -600bp) and a swift (scouting, -150m, 150e, 150bp)
total:
750m lost
750e lost
750bp used

result:
eco player comes out 420m on top
jack yeeter comes out 250e on top
jack yeeter comes out 920 bp on top

now time to translate E, bp and other stuff into metal.
let's assume a overdrive rate of 8e -> 1m (which is the point the game tells you to stop being a lobster and build more mexes). 250e translates to 31.25m
at a 8e -> 1m convertion rate, a fusion would take a little under 4 minutes to pay itself back. so lets assume your cons (which will be the generic-ish 130m cost 5 bp) also need to pay themselves back in 4mins, and that half their time is spent walking. that gives us aprox 0.216 m/e per bp, or 0.243m per bp, or aprox. 224m for the whole 920 bp.

lets say it takes 30s for for the fusion to get back up again. this will mean 1050 lost E and therefore 131.25 lost M

so all in all, the jack yeeter loses cost even in a successful hit. if they managed to kill more stuff they might be able to make even, but remember that the gotta make back the full cost of their ramp in 4 minutes and keep the rate up or else a singu would've been a better choice.

TL:DR - Singus or mohos are usually better than jack ramp.

EDIT: forgot to take into accout the cost of the BP needed to build the cons or caretakers having better BP rates than regular cons but should've really matter that much.
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