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Title: [A] Teams All Welcome (32p)
Host: Nobody
Game version: Zero-K v1.9.9.1
Engine version: 104.0.1-1544-ge1f249f
Battle ID: 1225217
Started: 2 years ago
Duration: 63 minutes
Players: 32
Bots: False
Mission: False
Rating: Casual
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Well watching this game twice caused me to lose several brain cells, but a game with twenty-odd attempted kick votes seems like it needs a review.

West team kick of gjyvbts
Whoever originally built the DRP nanoframe (can't remember who) gave it to gjyvbts by mistake. When the DRP finished gjyvbts did not control it. West team made what seemed to be a good faith attempt to communicate the issue to gjyvbts, then kicked them.

Getting kicked because somebody gave you a unit in a 16v16 and you didn't notice seems like it would feel pretty bad, but there is enough reason for this kick that I don't think it is appropriate to hand out modaction over it. Maybe it should be harder to give away a DRP by mistake.

East team attempted kick of waprold
Kick vote was for not moving a Funnelweb to protect the DRP from incoming fire. Expecting a quite new player to understand what is going on and respond quickly 45 minutes into a 16v16 seems pretty unreasonable to me.

East team kick of Felito
Felito sent a few constructors to reclaim the DRP wreck. He was told to stop by TheHiddenManiac followed by an immediate kick vote from Sodbuster on the basis of "teamkilling". Felito moved his constructors away and said that he would stop reclaiming. He was kicked anyway.

Reclaiming the wreck in this situation isn't really "teamkilling" in the first place, and Felito stopped when asked. This kick was clearly inappropriate.
[Spoiler]

TheHiddenManiac's attempted kick of therxxy
Somebody choosing to build a new Starlight rather than assist you in rezzing a DRP is not kickable. Pretty simple.

TheHiddenManiac's attempted kick of Skender
For reclaiming the DRP wreck (being rezzed, but not very fast) to put metal into the Starlight. I think in a situation where the team as a whole is clearly more on board with the build-a-Starlight plan, this is not kickable.

[Spoiler]

therxxy's attempted kick of RedEagle_P1
Spamming resign votes might be kickable in extreme situations but it does not seem to me that this was particularly extreme.

Teamkilling
TheHiddenManiac reclaimed therxxy's Starlight nanoframe with Athenas (briefly) and Caretakers in retaliation for the DRP being reclaimed earlier. The Athenas moved back to rezzing the DRP but the Caretaker kept reclaiming. Skender then blew up the Athenas with some pylons. If the actively reclaiming Caretakers had been blown up we would be more understanding, but the Athenas were not at this time doing the team any harm.

Instead of blowing up TheHiddenManiac's stuff he should just have been kicked, which indeed did happen a minute or two later.
+11 / -0

2 years ago
This game makes some pretty strong arguments both for and against the existence of kick votes. An answer currently on the table is to remove access to kick votes, temporarily or indefinitely, from some users. For now everybody who signed off on the Felito kick will be warned. That kick was incredibly unwarranted.

TheHiddenManiac's reclaiming of the Starlight nanoframe and Skender's teamkilling of the Athenas are both unacceptable and will be given a one day ban.
+3 / -0

2 years ago
My gosh, a lot of kick votes.
+2 / -0
problem is in part due to the map
why do people pick this map so much?
+4 / -0
2 years ago
I feel bad for felito here, he pulled off when asked and was still kicked-- really not a kind or smart move by east.
+2 / -0
2 years ago
https://github.com/ZeroK-RTS/Zero-K-Infrastructure/blob/master/ZkLobbyServer/autohost/MapPicker.cs#L69 allows Fields of Isis AFAIK regardless of the number of players, maybe the limit should be bumped a little (at least past 16 players) or the formula for calculating acceptable map size tweaked?
+4 / -0
quote:

really not a kind or smart move by east.


Definitely not kind for sure.

quote:

why do people pick this map so much?


I don't know, this map is pretty terrible.
+2 / -0
2 years ago
That was not my finest game : Lost so many striders stupidly my ears bleed just by remember it.
+2 / -0
Maps like this launched with 32 players have less individual agency and more emphasis on cooperation. In this case the winning team worked together to build DRP, vote kicked somebody to get it into the right hands, parked a pile of Funnelwebs on it, and won from a significantly worse position. East team failed to scout the opposing DRP, turned their metal advantage into dead striders, and tried to kick a bunch of people for dumb reasons.

Not my favorite either but not terrible to have in the rotation. If we came up with a list of maps that are "correct" for 32 players, would we be playing the same 8 maps in a loop?
+2 / -0
quote:
If we came up with a list of maps that are "correct" for 32 players, would we be playing the same 8 maps in a loop?

counts
Well there are at least 50 non-FFA that are twice the size...
(just looking at the ones with a listed size in my maps folder)
+1 / -0
Put frankly, this map is utter garbage for anything larger than 8v8.
Those stupid hills only allow for spiders (already a massive warning sign - don't play a map which favours spiders that way), yet the flat part lulls you into believing that vehicle facs are viable.

They are not. There are exactly 2 entrances to mid, and one entrance to enemy base. Both are easily walled off with porc. Due to braindead map, Lance cannot shoot through without being exposed, along with other direct fire artillery due to the walls forcing them to either face it directly or move off to the side, sniping any pushes. Impaler on the other hand can hide along the sides.

Assaults are simply suicidal on this map against any half-decent team. Skirmishers remain the only thing which can somewhst safely move up, only to be decimated by Crabe/Lance/Phantom/whatever hides behind the hills.
Defense as a result is massively boosted, with only Crabe spires being the somewhat useable option to mvoe up without being instantly blasted by artillery.

If we want less garbage like votekicks, perhaps we should choose maps which do not devolve into 'first to make superweapon wins' or, dunno, move to smaller games where the game does not stall as hard.
Why?
Because when the fate of your team hinges on making a superweapon, you can damn bet noobs who are just making units to the slaughter/making eco will be kicked when they do not donate M to the team's superweapon. Just note how every votekick Aquanim has deemed noteworthy revolves around a superweapon 'DRP this' 'DRP that' 'Team wants Starlight'...

+0 / -0
quote:
Just note how every votekick Aquanim has deemed noteworthy revolves around a superweapon 'DRP this' 'DRP that' 'Team wants Starlight'...

the problem is cooperating instead of superweapons i would say

oh well i guess superweapon is part of the problem, since everyone would want to control it, instead of watching others use it
+2 / -0
Yeah, Cooperation-K is interesting, but probably not what everybody signed up for. The autobalance doesn't measure mood or shitbag tendencies.
+0 / -0