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Title: [A] Teams All Welcome (32p)
Host: Nobody
Game version: Zero-K 1.10.8.0
Engine version: 105.1.1-841-g099e9d0
Started: 5 days ago
Duration: 37 minutes
Players: 18
Bots: False
Mission: False
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Team 1
Chance of victory: 48.8%

CArankSippio
DErankJummy
DErankkatastrophe
DErankHeldenstein
EErankm1sterX
BRrankmuffa
HRrankMajo
RUranktonyq
GBrankLOWMMR

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4 days ago
Should non-optimal strategy like rushing BB be considered griefing. This didn't seem fair to his team. Holding over 50k metal hostage, and not having an impact at all for the first 20 minutes of the game. moep has over 5k games played so this is a little ridiculous to say the least.
+2 / -2
quote:
Should non-optimal strategy like rushing BB be considered griefing.

This is the kind of question where the moderators are not going to feel comfortable intervening unless we get a strong signal from the community that it should be considered griefing (or at least disrespectful).

That being said, if there is a map on which afk Bertha spam is viable, it's probably Storm Siege.
+0 / -0

4 days ago
quote:
Holding over 50k metal hostage,


could you elaborate that in detail? in storages? in unfinished projects?
+1 / -0
Nothing personal about the downvote. I just view the suggestion as a threat to the long term health of this community. I don't see it being good for retention or fun. It's a slippery slope into using that against newbies and casuals. I REALLY do not think adding that kind of pressure onto other people is going to be good for fun because I've been in that situation. One day I was invited to play big teams with FIrankAdminAlcur. I'm far more casual now days and when I was told to "not play too casually" I was turned off by it. To me, casual means come and enjoy the game. Don't worry about outcome, have your fun but don't be an asshole. If you enjoy doing air but you suck at it, why should you be told not to do it? Why can't you have a turn after someone else? People gotta learn too.

To clarify: this does not mean I believe in "do whatever". As always, it should be a matter of communication that occurs during pre-game. I think that's a better middle ground than "do whatever" or "only play optimally".

ESrankmoepmoep here just shouldn't be given the benefit of the doubt because of their overall attitude. I once called them out for their behavior in a pvp future wars game and I was told, and quote:

quote:
[17:34] moepmoep: i love being an asshole sometimes, true


People like that are active detriments to the enjoyment of this community. It isn't the "suboptimal play" that should be banned, it's the lack of responsiveness to complaints and continuing to do it knowing full well people dislike you doing that which should be banned.
+1 / -1


3 days ago
The answer is to report them. People being reported is a good signal that people don't want to play with them.
+0 / -0
quote:
The answer is to report them. People being reported is a good signal that people don't want to play with them.


Sure, but put yourself in our shoes for a second. So far it's been communicated to us (over the course of our discourse on the forum/discord/lobby) that people who make "pointless reports" or however the wording was (it's been a while, admittedly) generally don't have their reports looked into. See the discussion with FIrankKapy (was it?) recently. When users report something, they need some feedback mechanism that their reports are effective. Unfortunately the faith with that has been broken (or at least in my perception of it) which is why you get forum posts like this or any other of the public call outs. People in the community look for this feedback (ie: modaction) to determine norms and action or feedback encourages them to make more reports. When people see you (the moderators) not "doing anything" because you've chosen to wait and see if it becomes a bigger issue, people lose faith in the system.

These little things aren't going to bring upon modaction nor would I reasonably expect them to be modactioned. For instance, I quite find the people signal boosting bad behavior annoying and detrimental to the overall health of the community, but it's not going to get modactioned and I'm aware I'm in the minority opinion of being tired of such antics. Why would I report such behaviors? I can call out those behaviors, and maybe see how others feel so I can get encouraged to start making such reports (as we're seeing with USrankUnLuky here).

Maybe our issue here is one of communication and a lack of feedback. Are people using the forum as a report for some behaviors (like this) as a measuring stick or are they desiring moderator feedback? Are they using it as a venting space? Probably something to look into.
+3 / -0
quote:
So far it's been communicated to us (over the course of our discourse on the forum/discord/lobby) that people who make "pointless reports" or however the wording was (it's been a while, admittedly) generally don't have their reports looked into. See the discussion with FIrankKapy (was it?) recently

If we are thinking of the same conversation here, that was in the context of one-word reports (and other reports that look like shitposts), which we get quite a few of, and very few of them turn out (as best we can tell) to have anything substantive behind them.

(Barring the occasional mistake or oversight,) we investigate every report which contains enough information to tell us what, where and when we are meant to look, no matter who sent it. If the report is lacking those details, then chasing the report down is a LOT more work and is far more likely to be a waste of our time. At that point some judgment of "is this reporter likely to be wasting my time or not" does come into play.

Making reports of events which you have accurately represented, but which the admins decide does not rise to the level of being modactionable, does not make us think that you have wasted our time. Sending us on a wild goose chase looking for an event that didn't actually happen is more of a problem.

quote:
When users report something, they need some feedback mechanism that their reports are effective.

If an individual sends in reports about another user that they find distasteful, but nobody else cares about the second user's behaviour, then their reports may not be (and sometimes should not be) effective.

If an individual sends in reports about another user that they find distasteful, and a bunch of other people also send in reports, then their reports potentially should be effective.

There is no way for the admins to know the difference between those two scenarios until all the reports come in. I don't see how we can have a "feedback mechanism" based on something that hasn't happened yet at the time of the initial reports.

quote:
When people see you (the moderators) not "doing anything" because you've chosen to wait and see if it becomes a bigger issue, people lose faith in the system.

Catch-22. We're not doing anything because we're not getting usable reports.

In this specific case I am quite sure that there are quite a few people in the community who would defend ESrankmoepmoep's style of play. For us to do something despite those people's opinions, I think we would need to be very sure that a very large section of the community is very sick of ESrankmoepmoep's conduct. We don't have anywhere close to the required amount of evidence to support that.

On the other hand, when USrankBotWIz accrued enough reports from a wide enough range of people he got well and truly modactioned.
+2 / -0


3 days ago
Perhaps we would benefit from an open discussion in the lobby? Or something? I'm pretty much guessing here to what the overall sentiment is in the community based on observations. Do users get feedback from you (the moderators) when their reports do not contain enough information or are just wastes of times (like the meme reports, as that discussion pointed out)?

Assuming most people that are making reports want a better community, giving them a little feedback like "hey, next time could you include a bit more detail in your report so we know what to look for" or something could go a long way towards improving report effectiveness. Another potential improvement could be even a view like this in the website:



Alternatively the post match screen could be improved to have a "report this user" button? Maybe part of the non-engagement is simply visibility. Reporting a user in game is buried in the dreaded share menu (player list does not have it, iirc).
+1 / -0


3 days ago
There are big problems with a rigid report feedback system.
  • It would make moderators do more work.
  • The relationship between reports and actions are often fuzzy.
  • Infra mana.
Some reports are straightforward. A clear case of griefing often generates a few reports in quick succession, which is a signal that the case is pretty simple. A report pointing to a particular clearly bad action goes on the ledger and probably gets at least a warning.

Many reports are not simple, and those are the ones with the feedback issue. They aren't tickets that are opened then closed or resolved. They are bits of feedback or a pointer that something may need looking into. If someone receives ten reports from ten different people over the course of a week, then the quality of report or individual actions behind each one barely matters. The player is clearly doing something that makes the game worse for a significant number of players. It doesn't matter if there is a rule about what they are doing, the fundamental rule of ZK is to avoid having your potential departure increase the general enjoyment of the game.

One fuzzy report is not the same as ten. Lots of people will annoy someone on occasion. Multiple reports are required to distinguish between two people not getting along, and a player who consistently annoys people to the point that moderation should try to curb the behaviour.

quote:
These little things aren't going to bring upon modaction nor would I reasonably expect them to be modactioned. For instance, I quite find the people signal boosting bad behavior annoying and detrimental to the overall health of the community, but it's not going to get modactioned and I'm aware I'm in the minority opinion of being tired of such antics. Why would I report such behaviors? I can call out those behaviors, and maybe see how others feel so I can get encouraged to start making such reports (as we're seeing with USrankUnLuky here).

That is a different discussion. Keep calling out bad behaviour when it's minor stuff that can be addressed with pushback and norms. Calling things out is good for trying to set a standard around grey areas. Send reports for things that you might reasonably expect would require moderator action. Perhaps calling out the behaviour isn't working in a specific case, or it is beyond a grey area. USrankUnLuky seemed to be talking about something that could need moderation action, rather than calling out behaviour.

quote:
So far it's been communicated to us (over the course of our discourse on the forum/discord/lobby) that people who make "pointless reports" or however the wording was (it's been a while, admittedly) generally don't have their reports looked into.

People who worry about their reports being pointless don't tend to be the people who send pointless reports. I occasionally PM people who seem to be legitimately trying but need to improve a report.
+1 / -0