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Title: [A] Small Teams All Welcome (8p)
Host: Nobody
Game version: Zero-K v1.12.6.0
Engine version: 105.1.1-2511-g747f18b
Battle ID: 1943975
Started: 23 days ago
Duration: 8 minutes
Players: 8
Bots: False
Mission: False
Rating: Casual
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Team 1
Chance of victory: 51.1%

DErankHoppili
USrankjohnmicheal20
PLrankChudy
DErankaaaasd
Team 2
Chance of victory: 48.9%

LUrankAdminAnir
USrankcooolcat1239
ITrankmanero
FRrankjjlepro01

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23 days ago

Ok lets look at this game. A Revenant on each side, they fire at a commander within a few seconds of each other.


The North one ignores the commander and blows up a depleted Felon. The Felon actually would have survived one shot if it was on hold fire, but that is advanced tech that I wouldn't want balance to hinge on. Hugging the Thug may also have been a good idea.

Previous activity on the front was a West player lose four Scorchers trying to kill an engineer comm, since a Felon showed up.


The commander jumps at it to try to get some damage in, but then dies to Felon. The Thugs don't cover it when it aggressively jumps.


North ends up like this, with the Revenant on 30% health.


The South one fires once at an engineer comm, then circles around the turrets and kills it as it retreats with a second shot.


It then goes right towards the forwards base and kills an Angler. Then it retreats on 11% health.


Things sort of stabalise and nothing happens in the air for a bit. But West has only 75% of the total value and army value of East.


Two Revenants snipe and engineer comm, but the one that was not repaired from two minutes ago is stunned and dies.

At 4:30, a 2500 cost shieldball pushes in North and kills the entire enemy army of Fencers. Two Revenants try to kill the shieldball, but spend a lot of health to only get one Felon due to all the shields.

East has built up 1500 in ground AA by 5:00. West has none, but can't exactly afford to build it either.

At 6:00 a push South by West is foiled by support from a Minotaur and Revenant, although it might have run out of steam by then anyway.
+2 / -0
A pure cost comparison approach suggests that Revenant is borderline fine. A Thug and a Felon cost about as much as a Revenant, so North was about 850 metal plus a commander on West vs 1700 metal on East. There were also two Kodachis but I lost track of them, perhaps they had something to do with why Red didn't help out as Yellow was double teamed.

It would seem like 1700 in a lot of stuff should beat 850 and a commander. But Revenant is providing an awkward combination of things to counter, and perhaps it causes the battle to end too quickly. There should be fairly strong defenders advantage early on, perhaps to the extent that 850 should at least get to retreat vs 1700.

That said, 850 in a lot of stuff instead of a Revenant would have beat top too. There was no defense so any raider could have swung around a bit to the south and killed the factory. Three Ravagers or Halberds would work too. But, these options would be slower and less flexible, and possibly let the defender consolidate their forces. So perhaps we are looking at Revenant speed, that allows it to deploy rapidly and choose where it helps out.

I am still quite pleased that repair is being such a high cost of reusing Revenant early on.

It is also worth noting that South was fairly stable due to the help of dark green. A lot of the effective Revenants in teamgames seem to be down to getting 2v1ed, but part of what might make it too powerful is the ease at which it creates 2v1s.
+1 / -1
22 days ago
AUrankAdminGoogleFrog
Sure, I could have activated Hold-Fire on the Felon. Congratulations to the micro-god who could have done that
Sure, I could have kept the Felon close to the Thug. He would still have died immediately afterwards.
Sure, I could have jumped later. But what good would that have done me? 10 seconds! The time the Rev needs to reload. I had to jump because I knew that either the Rev would die or I wouldn't be able to stop the enemy Felon in time. How naive...
I stand by my point of view. If I have to think every round that someone might build this one unit, then Zero-K is no fun for me anymore.



Let's say I knew at the start of the game that this unit was coming and still go shields. Ok, so I know I need AA. Only pure AA loses out to everything else. So that leaves me with raiders as an option, so I build bandits. Now comes the Rev, flattens a bandit, I get a bit of damage squeezed in. Meanwhile, the enemy shield ball appears. He shreds my bandits, of course, and now I die anyway.


I don't want to praise myself now, but I'm not exactly one of the weakest players you'll find here. If I can't stop this stupid unit. How are 80% of the players supposed to do that?

I stand by my point of view. This unit is destroying this game for me.
+5 / -0


22 days ago
LUrankAdminAnir I hear you, but I need to do more than just love or hate Revenant. It isn't enough to know that Revenant is too good, because that doesn't suggest a change. I need to know what it is bad at, what it might be too good at, and find the right space for its role.

I didn't start in the "Revenant is perfectly fine" camp. What would that make these thoughts on replays, just a diplomatic way to say "no"? I don't have a side, I'm just trying to figure out how good the unit is. Re-read what I wrote with that in mind and you might find quite a bit about the ways in Revenant might be too good.
+3 / -1

22 days ago
I think you have to listen to what you say and write AUrankAdminGoogleFrog because it's all a contradiction.
I saw right LUrankAdminAnir because I was next to him in battle. The Revenant is perhaps too strong a unit in its current state. It seems ridiculous to talk about building aa when the player who has air or gs should be making aa and not just attack units. Because either I make units to counter ground units or I give metal to make aa and that weakens me against the enemy's ground units.
I am glad you brought this up, because out of the last 20 games I have lost 18 for this reason.
1. So it's easy to see that Revenant rewards its metal cost because it gives so much damage;
2. There should as in other games be players who cover a specific role , in this case the role of air or gs, as I have already mentioned, and who are smart enough to also do Swift, Trident, relieving ground troops of that burden (see DErankJummy's games who could play air)
3. There is a rush to make Revennat faster to win the game.
Is it fun? no
To my request that I make in every air cover game, the genius who plays air or gs always responds the same way :Just do the aa .
So you need Nerf Revenant, don't do mathematical calculations if the person who produced it specced + metal than did shield, he still achieved his goal:
win

+0 / -2
quote:
A pure cost comparison approach suggests that Revenant is borderline fine. A Thug and a Felon cost about as much as a Revenant, so North was about 850 metal plus a commander on West vs 1700 metal on East


This analysis is ignoring the wildly different mobility of the two sets of units is it not? Like the thing with Revenant is not only does it more than make cost against flex-aa, it's faster than nearly all ground units in the game so can pick its battles (and has an easier time retreating when damaged) compared to equal metal in ground units.

EDIT: Should have kept reading as you did address this, though perhaps not with as much focus as it deserved.
+0 / -0
I feel like Rev is a sort of like rock paper scissors.
It beats heavy commitment to slow moving units, and loses to high mobility raiders.
With the prevalance of incredibly fast "teching" in big teams or chockey maps, its no suprise that rev thrives off shutting that down

In games with a large bot raider population, rev usually falls flat.
+0 / -0


21 days ago
ITrankmanero I'm not sure what the contradiction you talk about could me. I'm not trying to form an argument about whether revenant is too good or not, I'm just listing things I observe about it and thinking about it from a few angles. If you assume that I'm arguing one way or the other, then you will find contradictions.

USrankStuart98 the lack of focus there is probably because I'm mostly writing these to organise my own ideas, at this point. So I haven't been spelling everything out.
+1 / -0

20 days ago
AUrankAdminGoogleFrog what I meant in my reply, (perhaps given too eagerly as I was a party to that game), and re-reading what you said in the post, you actually only made a mathematical examination of the advantages/disadvantages of Revenant, both metal costs etc.
But I interpreted what LUrankAdminAnir said, and which then was my own impression ( in my case also in other games played) the impossibility of dealing with Revenant in the early phase of the game, with the means at hand, without the support of the aa given by air or gs.
And in this case whoever chooses Revenant wins easily, and I don't know how important the metal ratio spent to build it is. But as LUrankAdminAnir said, the game loses interest in this way
+1 / -0