Rocko seems a bit wimpy

The rocko, a skirmisher, does not seem to be able to fill the role of a skirmisher effectively. I have made the following observations.

1) It is prone to team kill when clumped. (Yes this can be avoided with proper micro but is still a problem.

2) It isn't very effective vs any general unit type:

a) It easily dies to raiders (as it should)
b) It is too slow to chase arty(not the main purpose so again, not a problem)
c) It is outranged by most static defence (some other skirms can kill lotus)
d) It is outskirmed by every other skirmisher due to it's short range (this is to be expected due to it's very low cost)
e) It is ok against riots (I feel the rocko's best chance to be effective metal-wise is against riots
f) It is very bad vs assaults compared to other skirms due to it's short range, slow move speed, and slow projectile speed

I) Jacks can jump on them by the time they are in range
II) Any aasault tank/lveh can dodge the rocko-shots and close the gap quickly
III) The remaining assaults, thug, zeus, hermit are all somewhat agile and can dodge a decent number of rocko shots due to their slow travel time.



I understand that it is by far the cheapest skirm unit, so it can't be expected to be fantastic, so I propose a complete rework of the unit. I don't have any specific ideas for what to change on it, but right now it seems like a bleh unit that has very little use even though it's cheap.

Please don't try to defend the rocko by citing only very specific situations where it is useful. Skirms are meant to be effective vs slower units (riot/assault) and right now the rocko fails at doing so overall.

Edit: Godamnit this thing was nicely formatted and it got ruined when i posted it

While the Rocko is a skirm, it is a bit assaulty, too, just like Hammers are a bit skirmy. Before Rocko's hp were nerfed from 450 to 350 I wanted to strengthen its skirmisher role, too. I would definitely not say it is a bad unit. Slight balance changes in whatever direction might be ok.

IMO rocko could have somewhere in 365-400 health because that puts it above 2-shotting itself (they often hit each other) while keeping it below 400 (raiders are designed with 400 damage in mind because that's mex).

But cloaky is good enough so a crappy rocko is not really a problem.

Cloaky is fine when played to its strengths. Zeus/Warrior might seem bad (although IMO Warriors are great), but it gets super nasty with a cloaker. Zeus is especially nasty for sneaking up on heavy stuff like Grizzlies with a cloaker and stunning them until dead.

As for Rocko, it has qualities that other skirms don't. It's the most mobile and cheapest skirmisher. It's not that hard to use those strengths to one's advantage. It's no Scalpel, but IMO Scalpel is op anyway so the solution would be to nerf Scalpel instead of buffing Rocko.

Sounds like we need to go back and do testing again.

I think Aquanim's assessment a little too harsh, but they certainly are falling away from where they used to be in the meta. Since GS have maintained their popularity as second fac on all the maps cloak is good at, the glaive just falls off way harder than it used to. Rockos and SS now fall below the point where you can blindly make them and feel confident it's not a mistake. Scythes are still amazing, and I doubt people have managed to reach their full potential.

I support Sprung's suggested changes.

You know how you use a line of glaives to raid enemy base and eco?

Rocko is meant to be used the same way.

If I were going to build a Cloaky unit to run down light-to-medium defences, it would be Hammer.

To refine an earlier statement of mine: It's possible Cloaky as it stands is fine... but it is a factory carried very hard by Glaive. Zeus and Warrior are not worthless by any means, but they are not the strength of the factory.

quote: Rocko in and of itself is fine, it's more used than some other units.

Nearly everything is more used than Leviathan, Quake and Surfboard. Can you be more specific? In particular, which units are weaker/built less often than Rocko, but aren't underpowered themselves?

Not being used that often isn't that bad, for that matter. Stuff like Archer, Recluse, Hawk aren't built all that often but do have situations where they feel strong. I'm not sure Rocko does any more. I certainly don't see them very often at all, and they cause me very little trouble when my opponent builds them.

I didn't say anything about a crazy rework. Some kind of small tweak to Rocko might be all that is required.

quote: I didn't say anything about a crazy rework. Some kind of small tweak to Rocko might be all that is required.

A small tweak to Scalpel might have a similar effect plus a plethora of other nice effects.

quote: A small tweak to Scalpel might have a similar effect plus a plethora of other nice effects.

Don't get me wrong, this would also be good. (Though considering it's nearly single-handedly making Hover viable, and Hover isn't really overpowering Lveh or Tank in terms of factory choices even now, care is necessary.)