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Title: MM 1814: 1v1, Rank Singularity
Host: Nobody
Game version: Zero-K v1.8.3.1
Engine version: 104.0.1-1435-g79d77ca
Battle ID: 848809
Started: 4 years ago
Duration: 19 minutes
Players: 2
Bots: False
Mission: False
Rating: Competitive
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Team 1
Chance of victory: 84.4%

SErankPLT_Godde
Team 2
Chance of victory: 15.6%

GBrankPRO_Dregs
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USrankKshatriya

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Combat terraform is OP. How the f*** am I supposed to be able to use tanks if people start using combat terraform seriously?
+5 / -0

4 years ago
:))))
+0 / -0


4 years ago
Terraform outranges both Minotaur and Cyclops and will turn any attack into suicide if there are caretakers there.
+0 / -0


4 years ago
Who cares if Caretaker outranges your Cyclops

If the Caretaker is buried you won't be able to shoot it even if it's in range
+3 / -0
This has been noted before. Here's another game where @Sparkles uses it (yes, that's a 6000m, game-winning army in @Sparkles base): https://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/840895

It is indeed complete bullshit how 200 metal of Caretaker can neutralize thousands of metal of almost anything else. Terraforming is by far the most broken part of the game. I realized this shortly after I started playing, but it feels cheesy and wrong to use it for more than elevating Desolators to shoot further, just like baiting Snipers with nanoframes is, so I haven't used it much (sunken Funnelwebs are bullshit...).
+0 / -0

4 years ago
I suppose this could be fixed if units just prevented terraforming like they do building on the same space as themselves.
+0 / -0
AUrankAdminGoogleFrog has said he'd approve such a thing. But my motivation for fixing Zero K is low at the moment.
+0 / -0
I was planning to widgetify digging... I keep postponing it though
+1 / -0


4 years ago
"Just" prevent terraform on the same space as enemy units. A few issues:
  • I have thought about writing efficient code to do this and it is a daunting prospect.
  • How does that fix the issue? Then you would be able to drag a big box around the enemy army and trap each unit in its own unterraformable space.
  • Does this turn Caretakers into ultimate cloak detectors?

I guess I had better do something though, and nobody else is stepping up to do the hard work. So here is a quickly constructed and poorly designed proximity terraform blocker:
https://github.com/ZeroK-RTS/Zero-K/commit/e4f4ef489ddefcc8c451dae8b7dc1d29ce1184f5

It doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Instead, it uses what is made cheaply available by Spring callins. Terraform progress is slowed by 50x if any visible enemies are within some 2D radius of its terraunit. The radius is calculated based on the potential leash offset and bounding box of the terraform.
+3 / -0
I think slowing terraform down by 50x times is a bit in the territory of it seeming broken if the enemy is sending some spam your way. Like slowing it down by 3-5 times would at least give feedback that terraform is actually happening.

I only think Combat terraform is OP on Caretakers and Funnelweb, well any long ranged buildpower.
An alternative would be to give terraform construction itself a relatively low maximum range or something like that.
+0 / -0


4 years ago
Another approach aired last time this topic surfaced was to make areas that are targeted by active terraform to have an ominous glow - including during the initial delay.
+2 / -0


4 years ago
Current delay is too short for that to have a significant impact.
+1 / -0


4 years ago
If the UI issue of "buildpower goes in, but nothing happen" were to be solved, i guess the delay could also be increased.
+3 / -0


4 years ago
Side note - Gonna need more ways to handle Mino then.
+0 / -0
Notice the Razor's inability to hit moving Gnats (at ~72%).
+0 / -0


4 years ago
@Godde I don't think you would want only a 3x modifier as the feedback that terraforming is happening. Tanks are blocked by terraform almost as soon as the ground starts moving. Three Caretakers with a 10x cost modifier are still reasonably effective at trapping a Minotaur if the base cost of the terraform is paid in preparation of tanks appearing.
+0 / -0

4 years ago
Does terraform being slower when units are underneath it help with random frustration of getting unit stuck inside terraform you wanted to put building in?

Will it prevent commander dig to escape danger? Will limit burried outlaws/pyros strategies?

If answer to any of that is yes, I think it'll lead to healthier gameplay and less frustration overall. Using these strategies may be strong and extra shtick for veterans, but I've always seen it as necessary bullshit that everyone is using, so you have to as well.
+2 / -0


4 years ago
I'm interested in knowing if you'll still be able to bury your own com in an emergency too.
+1 / -0
As it is currently implemented and as far as i can tell

- Your safety-violating builder is not a hostile unit to itself, so it will still be able to immure itself.

- Your commander is not a hostile unit, so you are not going to be prevented from burying it unless the enemies are close enough

- The enemy commander is a hostile unit, so you won't be able to dig it out any soon without exploding it first

- Your outlaw is not a hostile unit, so you will be able to use buried outlaws

- The enemy outlaw is a hostile unit, so you'll need a lot more time to dig it out
+0 / -0
More delay to terraforming wouldn't be terrible along with the ominous glow. More importantly blocking the terraform altogether around enemy units would cause stuff like buried comms to become massive game prolongers :|
+0 / -0
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