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Cloakbots vs Shieldbots in high 1v1

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Its regenerating hp that dosent kill the unit when at 0 and is never not 0 if health is 0
+0 / -0

3 years ago
Maybe lower the cost of Imps to 80 metal to make Cloakbots better against shieldbots.
+0 / -0
3 years ago
quote:
Wiki says lightning weapons can miss (like widow.. which can miss) make felon have a higher chance to miss when targeting air?


Felon's weapon isn't lighting. Also, while lighting weapons can miss, practically speaking that doesn't seem to matter. They typically have short range and lots of splash so their target gets hit anyways. I never see knights missing. (And if widow can really miss, that probably should be changed, an assassin unit that requires careful maneuvering and micro to get in position, with a +30 seconds reload, shouldn't miss)
+1 / -0
3 years ago
if it looks like lightning why is it not lightning tho. also color is purple but doesn't do slow dmg. This is like the most inconsistent unit of all time at this rate
+0 / -0
3 years ago
Does it look like lighting? It looks like a purple non-descript beam of energy to me. Then again I don't play with max graphical settings.

As I understand it Zero-K's visual language to indicate a lighting weapon is blue color, instantaneous bursts and an eletric-ish appearance. Heavy stunners with minimal direct damage are yellow.

Purple is the color of slow but is also the color of shields, I assume the purple in Felon's beam is meant to indicate that its consuming shield charge. I suppose both of these mechanics being purple isn't ideal, but it does make shield balls look neat.
+0 / -0
quote:
Wiki says lightning weapons can miss (like widow.. which can miss) make felon have a higher chance to miss when targeting air?

If Widow misses, then it's a bug, and you should report it. I assume you're talking about this:
quote:
Lighting is somewhat inaccurate but should reliably hit any large unit.

The wiki can be wrong or misleading. Some lightning is inaccurate and some isn't, just like rockets or cannons. That page seems to predate projectile lights and could do with updating.

I don't want to make Felon less accurate against aircraft because one of the core principals in Zero-K weapon design is that weapon behaviour is independent of what is being targeted. This rule can intentionally be broken in large consistent ways, such as with anti-air weapons only firing at air, but it should not be broken in subtle ways. Increasing sprayAngle against aircraft breaks this rule.

Another way of phrasing this principal is to look at the difference between a unit's mechanical capabilities and how the unit uses those abilities, or unit AI. The principal states that, mechanically, units are able to aim and fire in some set of directions. In this case of plasma cannons these directions may be unevenly limited based on the terrain, to ensure that the unit doesn't shoot beyond its range. Mechanics that limit targeting can only limit the direction of fire (except for anti-air). The parameters of a weapon when it is fired (such as spray angle) can't depend on what the unit is targeting because, mechanically, the unit should act as if it is just firing in a direction.

Adherence to this principal is an easy way to avoid weapon designs that create conflict between two other core parts of the design: smart unit AI and physical simulation. For example, this principal prohibits a weapon that "charges up" as it maintains fire on the same target. Since enemies block weapon fire, the optimal use of this weapon would be involve targeting units (or even the ground) at the back of a pack of enemies, so as it kill or damage multiple enemies without 'switching' targets. Adding this weapon puts a lot of strain on unit AI, and the behaviour of such a unit AI would look silly. Reformulating a mechanic in a way that doesn't depend on 'targets' or 'enemies' often leads to something with fewer silly implications when optimised by unit AI.

There are a few ways that the principal of target independence is technically violated. It is more a guideline for avoiding fighting unit AI, rather than a strict rule.
  • While range doesn't depend on there being targets, nearby enemies do give units the ability to aim weapons at positions above the ground. The ability to do this without enemies present would let many units overshoot their range.
  • Homing missiles seem to violate the principal, but like anti-air, they do so in a strict and consistent way. How the weapon aims and fires is unaffected, and the projectiles themselves have simple behaviour that moves them towards a unit regardless of its type.
  • Dominatrix would seem to violate the principal, but it depends on how you phrase it. It is still free to shoot capture beams in any direction. It just so happens that the capture beams can cause it to take control of an enemy unit, and that taking control of an enemy unit gives it a large reload penalty. There are still a few unit AI problems here (two Dominatrix may rather get two enemies to 99% at their full DPS, then capture both) but they are largely mitigated by the parameters of the unit.

quote:
Does it look like lighting? It looks like a purple non-descript beam of energy to me. Then again I don't play with max graphical settings.

Felon may have been designed even before slow damage gained a monopoly on purple. The lightning is functional and looks ok, but there would be better ways to communicate what it is doing. Perhaps it could have a zigzag beam based on the appearance of the shield shader.
+6 / -0
3 years ago
quote:
For example, this principal prohibits a weapon that "charges up" as it maintains fire on the same target. Since enemies block weapon fire, the optimal use of this weapon would be involve targeting units (or even the ground) at the back of a pack of enemies, so as it kill or damage multiple enemies without 'switching' targets.
In the case of felon you could have progressive damage based on when it started firing (similar mechanics with scorcher where is based on distance), independent on what it targets. If you have a UnitAI pre-firing when something seems to move towards you but still out of range, it means you could automate depleting shields by making the plane UnitAI retreat before in range (and repeat that). Also, why not have the scorcher mechanics where felon does more damage the closer the enemy?
+0 / -0
3 years ago
There is no point of sneaking on felons then, because it instagibs everything near. Maybe the opposite?
+0 / -0

3 years ago
Felons can't sneak anywhere with its shields on. Shielded units can't cloak.
+0 / -0


3 years ago
They're still quite capable of hiding in radar shadow in 1v1 :P
+0 / -0
3 years ago
quote:
There is no point of sneaking on felons then, because it instagibs everything near. Maybe the opposite?
Depends what you sneak. Bombs would still do fine their job... And any decent shield ball has some outlaws to make sneak hard. Make it do more damage only at distance would be also an interesting twist (if he can't shoot a full health likho on way in - such that air has a chance).
+0 / -0


3 years ago
Moving its weapon emit point to the surface of its shield - essentially, giving it a minimum range - could be interesting, even if unrelated to balance.
+2 / -0


3 years ago
quote:
In the case of felon you could have progressive damage based on when it started firing (similar mechanics with scorcher where is based on distance), independent on what it targets. If you have a UnitAI pre-firing when something seems to move towards you but still out of range, it means you could automate depleting shields by making the plane UnitAI retreat before in range (and repeat that). Also, why not have the scorcher mechanics where felon does more damage the closer the enemy?

A small wind-up time could work, but it puts some pressure on the unit AI. Damage falloff puts even more pressure on unit AI, simply because if there are more factors to weigh up when making a choice then there can be more ways to be wrong.
+0 / -0


3 years ago
Opinion; If you want to nerf felon, go about it by reducing Thug's shield amount / linked contribution rate. A lot of this thread focuses on outlaw or felon directly, but grouped thugs become an untouchable ammo bank far too fast. The fact that the only solution once that ball is packed is thunderbird, recluse spam or snitch tells you it's not the shortage of adequate countermeasures spread across the rival factories that's the problem - it's Shieldbots/Thug.
+0 / -0

3 years ago
make thug charging cost 0.5E is another solution.
+4 / -0

3 years ago
Shields should probably cost energy across the board.
+4 / -0
3 years ago
All cloaked units cost energy, it would make sense for all shielded units to cost energy as well. Currently the fact that some do and some don't is inconsistent and confusing.
+2 / -0
3 years ago
aspis and the static equivalent only shields that use energy... why? and funnelweb.
+0 / -0


3 years ago
quote:
All cloaked units cost energy, it would make sense for all shielded units to cost energy as well. Currently the fact that some do and some don't is inconsistent and confusing.

I swear I've written a long post about this, but cannot find it.
+0 / -0


3 years ago
Ongoing e-costs on units that don't have two states = bad
+0 / -0
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