I'm thinking commanders as they stand are one of the most fun parts of the game. Its fun to mix and match, play a bit of hero-unit. In 16x16 a person can end up spending a lot of time with their commander, and its fun. So good job with that, team. However I think you should take it a bit farther. IMO, at risk of tempting players to annoyingly sink all their money into it, there is room to allow for beefier and more distinct commander upgrades. Gaurdian: I think this guy needs to allow (as an upgrade) a weapon on each arm, plus a "backpack" D-weapon. So potentially no disintegrator, except perhaps if you limit yourself to two guns or find a non-D backpack weapon. I visualize this tending towards a small custom Paladin. Engineer: I think this one needs to add a super shield upgrade, tending towards a small custom Funnelweb. (Probably smaller radius, but very strong.) Recon: Unusually good vision, radar and cloaked-unit detection would be powerful, if unglamorous. Would be neat if the skillset encouraged very active play, probing the enemy and escaping. Strike: Its sneaky, so maybe more evil ninja/assassin skills tending towards custom Scorpion or Ultimatum? More specifically, perhaps an upgrade allowing the firing of some weapons while cloaked and/or to recloak more rapidly. On a related topic, I am not a fan of commanders that are not commander-shaped, because IMO the upright walking form is flexible and customizable, as it should be. Its also recognizable. So IMO there should be no commander tanks, boats, planes, etc. (I would of course not complain if certain striders offered upgrades, commander-style, without actually being commanders.)
+6 / -0
|
I agree that commanders are cool. I've often said that a later-game upgrade at around 6-7th level could allow them to play a bigger role at the frontline without unbalancing 1v1.
+4 / -0
|
Check out the mod futurewars, I think that commanders have been made more distinct there.
+3 / -1
|
Yeah thanks, I'll have to see what futurewars is like, maybe an AI bloodbath.
+0 / -0
|
In future wars Strike is a dedicated assassin commander, engineer is a flexible support commander, Recon is a true recon, and guardian is a meaty brawler. Every unit is mad, but commanders have an insane potential that I would not be against seeing some of it seep into the regular zero-k.
+2 / -0
|
Yeah, I like the idea of monster commanders - fighting in the front lines! Contrary to certain ZK ideology.
+2 / -0
|
In the beginning of ZK, coms used to have limited morphs but could be configured into extreme niches. Like a nano-beam that could (almost?) outrange artillery or even longer range riot and sniper guns. Most of the time those hero coms were still useless, but sometimes the extreme builds could be like an exploit of game-balance (looking at you, sfireman). As they are coms feel a lot more balanced and fit in easier. Having them made more powerful again would require unit-counters that again would mess up balance.
+1 / -0
|
It would depend on which previously removed module was returned. Plasma artillery was one of the go-to choices since it allowed the range of those coms to avoid the main issue of getting sniped instantly while being an overbearing presence on the battlefield, either through pure damage or through the area denial of the fire upgrade. Movement speed upgrade is weaker now, so are damage& range, still doesn't stop D-gun commander build that was and is today still common place due to how effective it is. I see no reason why some of the modules shouldn't make a comeback, assault cannon is a simple choice, so is intense beam, heavy barrel, gauss cannon, even stand-off rocket should be a no-brainer, it might make the missile launcher not a completely horrible weapon to use.
+3 / -0
|
The problem with morphed coms is the following one - since you can play with the com while it is being morphed, there is not the punishment in the form that you cannot play with some expensive unit while it is being built. Thus, coms have to be weaker than units (striders) with similar cost. Maybe, the solution would be to add a new unit to strider hub, which would be like a buffed up com? It would still be expensive and not cost effective, but it would have the ability to be morphed and upgraded further, which is what people love about coms, being able to customize it for it to suit your needs. Since it would not be available in the early game, it would not have such an effect on game balance, and you would be able to fix the balance just by changhing how much morphing costs, which modules are available, etc. It could cost like 6000 metal and have a similar power level as, for example, cyclops. But it would be morhphable tho, so if you add cloak, etc., you could find some niche spots where it might be very effective.
+6 / -0
|
Took a few rounds in futurewars vs AIs, blew stuff up with super commanders, gotta say thats stronger medicine that I'm calling for. (Amusing destruction, but a flaming-artillery commander was totally nuts.) I'm just looking for a bit more of the current flavor, more possibility of using your commander as a powerful unit, at considerable risk. Risk of death, but also risk of simply wasting your money, because the upgraded commander wasn't put to enough use. IMO at the current time, there isn't much problem with overpowered commanders. Its more the opposite problem, everyone loves destroying them, so its risky to be exposed. Lances, Lichos, swarmers, cloaked assassins, crawling bombs and zappers await.
+3 / -0
|
The current guardian commander with dual rocket launchers, 8x range upgrades and the napalm upgrade may be up your alley
+3 / -0
|
What about just adding a "Decoy Commander" at strider hub? (like Silent AI suggested) Hence if you want to sink all your resource in customisable "hero" units, you can. Requiring a strider hub is an obstacle to owning 2 commanders too early (causing imbalance)
+4 / -0
|
quote:
there is room to allow for beefier and more distinct commander upgrades. |
Enter: Future Wars. Do you have a moment for our lord and savior, Minefield in a Can +300% jump range recon comm with 102 speed? quote:
Recon: Unusually good vision, radar and cloaked-unit detection would be powerful, if unglamorous. Would be neat if the skillset encouraged very active play, probing the enemy and escaping. |
Literally done in Future Wars already minus cloaked unit detection. FW Recons have +sight, +radar, ++speed -hp, and ++jump range/ ++ jump reload / +jump reload +jump range modules with raider-esque weapons.
+1 / -0
|
IMO a decoy commander would actually be too powerful, since the real ones are so tasty. Opponents would invest too many resources in destroying them, leading to real commanders being at less risk. Poor idea I say. However being able to build shiny new commanders would be awesome. They should cost a fair bit though, not least because they generate resources. So that would mostly be a curiosity, probably very annoying in teams games. ("WTF are you wasting metal building comms for?!") Or, failing that, it would be awesome to have customization buttons on many/most/all of the superunits. Generally the upgrades should be priced on the expensive side, catering to users that have a plan for how to reclaim that cost. I'm going to go take another round or two vs AIs in future wars now I think, an amusing mod, if a bit extreme in my opinion. I wonder what commander I should goof around with this time.
+2 / -0
|
quote:
The problem with morphed coms is the following one - since you can play with the com while it is being morphed, there is not the punishment in the form that you cannot play with some expensive unit while it is being built. Thus, coms have to be weaker than units (striders) with similar cost.
Maybe, the solution would be to add a new unit to strider hub, which would be like a buffed up com? It would still be expensive and not cost effective, but it would have the ability to be morphed and upgraded further, which is what people love about coms, being able to customize it for it to suit your needs. |
I'm still behind the pillar of balancing it simply via cost, nothing else, no need to add a new unit to strider hub when a simple increase in metal cost can throw a com-rushing strategy into "still works, not viable/cost-effective". Even the plasma artillery can be returned with a proper price tag. If it keeps getting spammed into a go-to-can't-fail meta just keep increasing the cost until popularity fades enough.
+2 / -0
|
Over in a futurewars AI battle, I just tried out a jumping flamethrower with a bag of mines, interesting to play, but didn't seem overpowerful in that game. Lots of interesting options to play with, and the AIs never complain...
+3 / -0
|
quote:
not least because they generate resources |
Commanders by themselves do not generate resources, it's a module called "Vanguard Economy Pack" that generates the 3 m/s and 5 e/s. Like all modules, it falls off the commander when they die. so resurrected commanders do not have the material generation. quote:
Even the plasma artillery can be returned with a proper price tag. If it keeps getting spammed into a go-to-can't-fail meta just keep increasing the cost until popularity fades enough. |
I'm not sure, plasma artillery has the advantage of not having to put your comm in the harm's way. that's a benefit that scales with the game size. the result could just be a weapon that's useless in game smaller than 6v6s. And overshadowing all other options in 16v16s.
+3 / -0
|
As long as finished plasma arty commander cost is more expensive than a pack of impalers or pillagers it will be fine.
+1 / -0
|
I think artillery commanders have the wrong spirit. Either hide it back in the base playing sim city, or put skin in the game.
+0 / -0
|
