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Ranks, Small teams etc.

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17 months ago
Ranks, Small teams etc.

I wanted to make a series of observations:

1) Small team room
It is ZK's best advertisement.
Yesterday I played many games in the small team 8vs8. And I enjoyed it very much! some lost some won. But all fun. No tower defense etc. In this mode you see the true essence of ZK.

2) Random ranks
Why not add more difficult ranks for the player to reach, if not at higher levels, with other colors, and remove the demotion to an earlier rank instead. What does it mean?
Elo certainly represents the strength of the player in 1v1. But this is not the case in casual, especially 16v16.
Does the balance hold some of the historical rank as well as the elo score?
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17 months ago
quote:
Does the balance hold some of the historical rank as well as the elo score?

No. Technically you can calculate it but I don't think it's immediately feasible because you would also have to calculate the rank of everybody else since ranks are relative.

quote:
Why not add more difficult ranks for the player to reach, if not at higher levels, with other colors

Ranks are relative. If you're purple you are top 1%, so this currently applies to like 20 people. Top 3 get a badge on top of that. There's also a badge for level 200 IIRC. Do you have any specific suggestions?

[Spoiler]
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17 months ago
The big question is what it would take to make a consistent 8v8 room without making too many people sad. Would an 8v8 limit spill over players to two rooms properly?
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PLrankAdminSprung

The question was precise.
Do casual game ranks affect game balance or not, or does it only affect player rating?
Because if it didn't affect the history of the highest rank previously earned by the player, there would be the risk of just making a statistical calculation immediately without considering that players like FRrankSlaab or TWrankKitty116065, who have lost the purple rank, are no less strong than before they had it. On the contrary.

AUrankAdminGoogleFrog

Usually people are habits, they don't like change.
Even if they can be game-enhancing.
Without wanting to impose anything on anyone, I propose to encourage the game in 8vs8 rooms through a different elo prize.
In the wellcome team room with 16 vs 16, precisely because the contribution of the individual player is almost always not decisive for the final victory, I would propose a halved or zero prize compared to the 8vs8 rooms. This would encourage players to move to the best performing rooms, which would still be accessible to everyone, even beginners
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quote:
No tower defense etc.

Tower defense has nothing to do with numbers. It has everything to do with the type of players in the game. If I placed two trolls on your team, I bet your opinion will change immediately. In other words, just because you played a few enjoyable game does not mean your enjoyable game is due to the numbers and not because of the players involved.
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17 months ago
I think he means the 8p, 4v4 rooms, not an 8v8 room. Bigly gud games were had yesterday in the 8p room.
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17 months ago
SGrankLu5ck, I do not think.
It also annoys me in my team when building defenses shields, berthas and other things that are not units.
But in team wellcome there are often unplayable matches, stuck in fixed positions, zero strategy.
Few players, large maps
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17 months ago
quote:
Do casual game ranks affect game balance or not, or does it only affect player rating?
Because if it didn't affect the history of the highest rank previously earned by the player,

Player rating (the number) affects game ranks (the color) (so not the other way around).
Player rating affects game balance.

Rating by itself does not tell anything (real life example: I tell you I measured something with an error of 1 meter. Is it good or bad? If I measure the height of a human is very bad measurement. If I measure the distance between Earth and the moon is a very good one). So generally one uses rating to compare between players (ex: ladder, ranking, balancing).

The next interesting question (to which I do not know the answer) would be: does the rating have some upper/lower bounds for a certain number of players and games played (ex: assume there are only 10 players that play around 10 games per day, is there a "highest rating" possible and would that be different to when there are 100 players playing 100 games per day).
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17 months ago
FRrankmalric
I understood how the player rating takes place.
Instead, what is not clear to me is whether the algorithm has been given the opportunity to give a historical evaluation of the player.
For example, a good casual player, not 1v1, plays in a wellcome team, and as often happens, through no fault of his own, (newbies who build detriments after 1 min, etc.) lose more than they win, even losing 10 games in a row . The elo which initially varies slightly, as I have seen from personal experience suddenly collapses with the succession of defeats.
Drops in rank. He is no longer purple. The rating has dropped.
But does it really prove its strength?
In my opinion not. And this affects the balance of the teams. So if his Elo dropped from 2700 to 2000, in a team he is considered as a 2000 player, but his effective strength is definitely higher.
And I think it affects the balance.
That's why I say that rank should be considered as an additional variable.
If you're a chess GM, they don't take your title away if you lose 20 games. You are always a strong player. This can't be measured with a number, but with rank it is. If you have reached that rank, it means that you are skilled enough.
So in summary, in the division into teams, the balance should take into account when dividing the two teams:
1. first taking into account the ranks of the players,
2. then calculating the rating in the next phase for the remaining players where the ranks are not evenly divisible between the two teams.
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17 months ago
What if the said player that lost 10 games in a row really did not change his strategy based on the latest balance tweak? Maybe he was expert with unit X and unit X got nerfed.

I am not automatically saying that the idea is bad. I am just commenting that there are many cases out there. That's one of the reasons I made the statistics described in this forum thread, and these are the aspects I observed for me:
  • I win much more on some maps than on others (over years and many games so don't think it's the team mates). Perhaps not surprisingly before seeing the statistics I felt I like more the maps on which I realized win more (at least now I know why :-p). - should map be taken into account by balancer?...
  • there are teammates with whom I win more if in the same team; there are team mates agasint which I loose more when in opposing teams - should actual player pairing be taken into account by balancer?...

Best way to show an idea works is to make an implementation. You can check an example of an in-depth analysis for an idea/hypothesis that DErankdunno did in this forum thread.
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