- Slashers seem slightly op atm. better than rocko/rogue at virtually everything, massacres raiders with support and functions like artillery too. - Outlaw is defo slightly op atm. Slow damage + hitting all targets in range make it equally dangerous vs assaults and anything else in numbers. massacres most gunships. massacres skirmishers if they are in range for even a moment, since they get slowed and caught. massacres light vehicles easily when used with thugs.
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Slasher are particularly good on flats (as veh should be) and a lot of stuff counters it. Currently I have not seen enough so I'm more inclined to believe Rocko and Rogue are at fault. Outlaw is slow and has low range. So is it just extreme? I'd rather worry about Felon and Buoy.
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Slashers, unlike other skirm units, are complete win-or-fail. Because they can't move and fire at the same time, they can't skirm away from units that mean to kill them. Either they sit still and kill the enemy, or the enemy kills them. There's no middle ground, and that is really a SC mechanic more than anything. ZK focuses and being smart with units and repairing them when possible, SC relies on big all-or-nothing showdowns.
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outlaw range is pretty good actually quote:
lashers, unlike other skirm units, are complete win-or-fail. Because they can't move and fire at the same time, they can't skirm away from units that mean to kill them. Either they sit still and kill the enemy, or the enemy kills them. |
nah, not true at all. they can easily pull back when enemy gets closer. they are great for harassing coms. quote:
I'd rather worry about Felon and Buoy. |
both seem slightly too good
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I think it's hard to prove that outlaw is OP, because it's not like something you can mass and just win. I'm finding that I really love a 3-thug 1-outlaw combination though. That's really powerful because the thug shield can tank a ton and the outlaw will just keep doing nonstop damage to anything near it. And the slow debuff can make the thugs last longer and hit more frequently also.
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The Felon isn't in itself OP. It just synergises too well with shield balls, and its weapon is good versus everything. Once you've got a shield or two up, it leaves rougues looking pretty redundant. My feeling is a weapon like that has no place in a TA derived game, where it's rubbing shoulders with inaccuarate plasma lobbers, rockos and things like the Merl. Anyway, time for a neonstorm: The Outlaw may be a little OP. To nerf it you could give it a shield charge bar and allow it to link to other shields. Then make its weapon cost shield charge, much like the felon. If it uses up all its charge in ~5s of attack, it'll be weaker versus high cost enemies. It would also mean there's a reason not to use the 'constant fire' button. @luckywaldo Just because it won't win the game alone, doesn't mean it's not op. I could give the Pene a 10,000 damage burst and it wouldn't win games on its own. The Outlaw is just a little too good at what it does.
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Slashers just need to be more "immobile support emplacement" and less "fire, run, fire, run". Maybe it needs a higher waiting time before it can move? Basically: Make it halt and start firing immediately after (no pause), but once it gets a move order it needs to slowly pack its weapon (long pause). Felon really isn't a problem with the latest small range nerf. It might be a tiny tad powerful, but that's fine considering the current pathing version and its group hugs (makes Skuttles more powerful against shieldballs). Outlaw just needs synced damage and gfx. It's really really hard to take them down when you don't know the true expansion of their damage effect. I'm sure it wont be a balance problem afterwards.
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I personally dont like how Slashers play.
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[color=grey]Slashers are very good AA units against things like Banshees, Rapiers or Avengers, because of very low overkill and a high fire concentration. And that is another reason why nobody use this short ranged low health stuff and go to heavier, retreat-able things which are generally hard to kill.[/color] And because air is so fast, the deploy is a weakness. The part is that this weakness is only a weakness against fast air and not against slow ground units. Why do slashers have a speed of 3 like Ravager or Scorcher and not 2 like Leveler? [color=grey]Why did we buff the health so much that it can take 5 defender shots and 4 Panther-shots - even if Panther as assault/raider should be exactly the right counter to it? Shouldn't hp generally be much more of a weakness for all long skirmish units?[/color] Would it have much too much impact if we nerf the speed to 2.5 and the turn rate massively?
How do you think about enable "fire while moving", but only against air targets?____[color=grey]Outlaws damage got both - buffed at the edge and delayed - for a better synergy with shields. This also introduced some strange behavior like Glaives running away and avoid the visible effect but still get damaged.[/color] First the slow got nerfed (caps at 50% not 66%), then outlaw got changed (see above), then shields got buffed (to buff Felon) by a higher weight of Thug and con-shield. Would it be better if the slow effect applies instantly while the damage (which could be a bit nerfed) still applies with delay?I appreciate the slow buff (edgeFalloff), but was buffing the damage as well still a good choice? [color=grey]Just a though: Stun/Slow for Felon would make bombs less efficient, and allow a lower effective dps. Both would create a synergy with Rackeeter and Rogue which could be OP.[/color]
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>> @luckywaldo Just because it won't win the game alone, doesn't mean it's not op. I could give the Pene a 10,000 damage burst and it wouldn't win games on its own. The Outlaw is just a little too good at what it does. I completely agree. Actually, that's pretty much what I was trying to saw, but didn't phrase it so clearly. Even though outlaw spam doesn't win the game it could very well still be OP.
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It is OP.. trust me, I abuse that unit more than anyone I've seen.
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The Slasher suffers from the same problem as any other skirm that can hit raiders - it's impossible to balance. It outranges raiders, assaults, and riots, and hits all of them. If you nerf it into being a balanced unit, then it's useless except in groups of 20 when fighting a lab that can't muster assaults. Skirms are the toughest units to balance, and their ability to fight raiders makes them worse - almost every skirm has been the "omg OP" unit at one time or another... rockos, buoys, slashers, samsons, recluses, etc. The Slasher is one of those units that probably can't be balanced just by tweaking some numbers, it needs new gameplay. Skasi - I agree about the "packup" time. Any unit that can't fire while moving needs to be static for its full weapon cooldown-time, and a little extra for a "packup" time. This means that microing it is a real tactical decision because you seriously lose firing time when it's moved, so then it uses the same amount of micro as an autoskirming unit.
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^ trash, it can easily be balanced. atm its pretty darn good. cropping eg. 5% off its DPS and then seeing how good it feels then is prolly the way to go
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It has low reload and (at least should have) relatively high pack time. So your stutter step concerns are unjustified.
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Its not that, Frog. The SC-argument is just silly, ignore it. The true problem is high movement speed combined with the long range and nice dps. That's why it needs a higher pack time, so its current "skirmisher without unitAI" role is turned into more of a "deployed support vehicle" role that relies on scouting to flee in time or tanks/riots that provide hp and short ranged standing power.
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Exactly. I even remember biting KR's nose off when he suggested reducing pack time as a buff.
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Now I'm thinking about trying artillery + assaults (or other tanking units) to handle these. With the threat of assaults, you can't stop firing and move them to avoid artillery fire.
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drastic reduction of los can be interesting too. Forces a combination with other units im in support of longer deploy time or slower movement speed. Deploy time should be long enough to give another vehicle in range time to turn around and get away without getting hit more then twice.
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I would be fine with a small dps nerf.. they did get a pretty significant buff
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Not deploy time, Tandstickor. The opposite: "pack time" or however you call it. When deploy time is kept low and pack time high enough, then Slasher's AA powers will be the same (air is usually too fast to be chased, only exception is Moderator support) and its ground powers nerfed.
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