Current Krow OP

I haven't fought a Krow recently, but iirc isn't it generally shorter-ranged than most AA units? I mean, it will eat your base, but can't you stand off and keep pounding it with impunity?

Although the Krow with a grav-gun would be nice, although it's sad that the only mobile units with grav-guns are superheavy assault-units.... but still, a flying unit armed with attracting-grav-guns and heat-rays could be *hilarious*.

The last change was just 50% better DPS vs fighters, some HP and cluster bombs iirc. The fighter thing is a bit poor but it doesn't seem particularly powerful. I have seen it win games but in those situations a 5k investment should have won.

Use mobile AA at max range.

If you make a Screamer, you will need 10 shots - 900 metal.

But effective need is about 7 or 8 shots, because you don't relay on only a screamer as AA - that's about 630 to 720 metal.

Also we can subtract the metal the other team spent and the metal that you get from the wreckage compensate your lost units ( because it is deep in your territory most times ).

That's about 7000 metal we can substract and 720 metal expense - that's about 6300 metal you can lose or have spent into AA.

Even if you have only 3000 metal in Avengers -> you beat Krow.

Also Krow can be Annihilated, Doomed, or emp-nuked -> you can use most ground weapons against it.

You can even spam glaives ( in groups of 10 should be enough ) and let them fulfill the role as a high-dps unit.

Once a game I lost 2 Krows to a single EMP-Nuke - that's shit ( no single unit should be able to stun about 20 times it's cost ).

The same game I lost about 3 Krows due to fighters.
( But The other player needed to send his Vamps into the 3 flaks and 2 chainsaws behind my Krow + I got the wreckages ).
Another time I lost my Krows without result because my stupid ally morphed a geo and they tacnuked it before the fighters Arive.

I think It's not too complicated.
And you can even stun it easily with Zeus and ticks if it has less than 5000 HP and you get the tick close enough ( spam dirt to cover them )

The problem with the krow is just how much DPS it does underneath it. It is anti-swarm and anti-heavy, it will nuke any commander, reaper, sumo, in one volley. ONE. VOLLEY. And it spends 1/3'rd of its time with this effect active (realod time is 3x burst time).

The enemy needs to make a TON of AA to counter it, and you can usually just repair it inbetween. They need to make enough AA to stop a krow along their whole flank- this thing is faster (3.4) than a bandit (3.2) and can easily outrun most AA and retreat to heal then attack from any other position on defensive line.

IMO its just the d-gun. The d-gun thing isnt such a bad idea (other than the fact that the guns cant fire underneath it so thats meant to be 'a way to counter it'- so much for that mechanic). The dgun needs way less DPS, it should be anti-heavy or anti-swarm, not both. The only thing that stops the krow being colossally OP is just how hard it is to get up due to the investmnet, and the fact that it can theoretically be beaten with enough AA (but they will probably lose to land after investing that much, if they manage to kill it).

Krow got a very big weakness. It can be hit by pretty much anything. I even saw skirmishers hitting it. Hlt's hit the krow just like they would hit any ground unit. Same goes for pretty much all other defences. I didnt tested it yet but i think infiltrator can even hit it since it flies so low.

Also try moderators vs krow combined with aa. If you spend 2500 metal in aa and moderators krow will come down no problem. It can be killed with less.

And as always in big maps you need a air player. The air player can easily kill a damaged krow with his vamps.

I seen a doomsday machine pwn a krow. Doomsday isnt even aa....

>Once a game I lost 2 Krows to a single EMP-Nuke - that's shit

That was me! And I used TWO Emp missiles fire at the same time, not one.

Battle is here:

http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/30380

I'd much rather fight three lichos than a krow. I actually think that the fixed wing fac is worse in every way than gunships (except for the radar plane).

So once again: ZOMG A UNITZ IS 2 POWERFULL NERFPLOXKTHXBAI

If a unit is too powerful, abuse the hell out of that unit until it is nerfed. My problem with nerfing a unit like the Krow based on the damage it did in a single (alleged) battle is this:

1)If it's as powerful as you say it is, why not use it yourself?
2)What the fuck were you doing that you allowed an enemy to dump 5k metal into a unit without totally fragging his allies.
3)Assuming a Krow takes 3-5 minutes to complete, depending on income, how did you allow the enemy to build it without it being scouted?
4)Assuming that you decided NOT to scout enemy for 5 minutes, why did 1 player suddenly stop sending units?

On point #2, in an even match, if you have allowed the enemy to hold you while one of their allies stops supporting front and instead builds Krow, it was YOU that failed, not some unit. During the time it took them to complete the Krow, they had 5k less metal on the frontline than you did. Why didn't you beat them first?

On point #4, I have a Krow alarm built into my head. Whenever a gunship player stops harassing you with little gunships and does nothing for a few minutes, you can assume with greater than 50% accuracy that they are either building a Krow or massing a lot of smaller gunships. In either scenario, you should start building AA.

>>Krow can be built apart from other units, even 6M/s, this won't affect other units production much.

That means that they would need a second lab, bringing the total cost of Krow to 5550 metal. At a rate of 6 M/s, it would take them 15.4 minutes to complete the first Krow. Average metal income after 15 minutes is around 10 M/s per player. This means the enemy is only able to spend 4 M/s on units. So you're telling me that with the enemy only spending 4 M/s on units, vs your 10 M/s on units, you cannot beat them in 15 minutes?

>>Firstly, in a large battle player cannot forsee when/if the krow will come/exist as mostly there will be team-work.

Then you need to teamwork back with AA! If they rush Krow, the team should fight back with AA!

>>when several players start together to form a gunship raider group from begining.

OMG a team using teamwork to defeat the enemy team? Say it isn't so. This is a team game. That means explicit teamwork SHOULD give a team a winning advantage, whether it be through Krow Rush, Detriment Rush, or well-timed coordinated Glaive raids. Too often in ZK people pair off in 1v1 fights and fight ONLY a single person. How many times in a 4v4 do you see 4 little 1v1 battles going on? ALL THE TIME. And those always take the longest and look the worst.

>>Your whole post

Sounds like Krow is super OP then! How about you use those very strategies you listed and go kick some ass with them! I think you'll find that the strength of the player is a lot more powerful than the Krow.

Lastly, you'll notice that (generally) the higher a Player's Elo is, the less they want stuff nerfed. Why do you think that is? It's because the best players have learned to counter the units that everyone is screaming are OP, and use the units that are actually OP (hint: there are none). I've watched Saktoth, Lucky, and Skasi win games using every unit from every lab. IT'S THE PLAYER, NOT THE UNITS.