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Recent Suggestions

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Some recent balance suggestions that I think it would be nice to see implemented:

Lauri's Panther Buff suggestion:

quote:
Agree about the Panther, it does feel weak. It was very strong before the slight damage nerf (220 -> 190). The point of the nerf was to make it stop hardcountering Scorchers, which was ruining tank vs vehicle early game. Banisher was reroled to be a riot to help with the reduced riot capabilities of the Panther. The most important effects of the nerf:

2->3 hits to kill Scorcher
1->2 hits to kill Glaive
2->3 hits to kill Mex
4->5 hits to kill LLT

A damage buff of 190 -> 205 would get rid of the last three nerfs while keeping the three hit to kill requirement on the Scorcher (which is the part of the nerf that seems to be working well).


Googles Tremor Buff suggestion:

quote:
More projectiles for Tremor is quite faithful to Quant's rule. I like it.


Googles Tick Buff suggestion:

quote:
Tick is not the type of unit which would appear in teamgames, especially not large teamgames. It cannot work when there is an emu walk of commanders pushing turrets across the map.

There is one possible buff though. Now that Tick is not so great vs raiders it could afford to be better against other units. This would be achieved with a damage buff. It would give it some extra use cases.


Anarchid's Dominatrix suggestion:

quote:
To give veh more anti-heavy (with the aim of killing Reaper) Dominatrix could have a buff (a little range? higher cap rate?) and a nerf of longer reload time


My Hacksaw suggestion

quote:
Make them at least slightly viable, atm it is a noob trap and nothing else.


Drone's Recluse Buff suggestion:

quote:
defender range: 610
recluse range: 540

One of the many things that makes recluse so awkward to play with, especially when you never know how many volleys its going to take due to the small hitbox of defender and recluse bad accuracy.

300m->280m same price as redback is what I would do. Any over buff would lead to brokenly op mono-spam because recluse has that kind of all-purpose potential.


This buff was implemented and still hasn't made them attractive.

Making the missiles travel more slowly but land with less spread might be a valid way to proceed (the lower speed compensating for the added accuracy vs mobiles)
+6 / -0
4 years ago
The domi should not exist in its current state. It needs redesigning with a real weapon, not buffing.

Panther killing glaives in one shot would make tanks hardcounter everything cloakies have except snipers.

Those changes to ticks, tremors, hacksaws and recluses sound good.
+0 / -0

4 years ago
I too am hesitant to relive the slaughter of panther vs. glaive. I was too bad to reliably gauge their power at the time, but I remember using panthers to make ridiculous cost in big teams vs. both glaives and scorchers. This revert would further disincentivise bots near flats.

I don't mind LV not having a 'real' anti-heavy. IMO they're the strongest factory on almost any map that fully allows them, and this difficulty with an unreliable anti-heavy is an acceptable weakness. However, though interesting, they do tend to make games very one sided when used, which can hurt everyone's experience in a team game.
+1 / -0

4 years ago
Need buff for raven. With it slow diving speed nobody uses it.
Need buff for detris. It cost 25k metal and one starlight melt it or some berthas too.
Zenith is needed buff. More precison or buff vs shields. Nobody use it.
Dominatrix is almosr ded and only trolls uses it..
There was discussion about pillager buff. More precision would be nice for it.
Hacksaw? What is it? Did somebody uses it? Nobody.
I agree about tick. Or it will be used only on 1 vs 1..
Tremor is fine as it is.
Add for spiders and amphs arty units to deal with porc. Or only mass attack or crabe spires only left as options.
+0 / -3


4 years ago
quote:
The domi should not exist in its current state. It needs redesigning with a real weapon, not buffing.

This is not a buff per se. It would become stronger against heavier targets, weaker vs lighter targets. More of a crystallization of the role it already has, into one that is direly needed by its factory.
+2 / -0

4 years ago
Buff panther ROF instead so you don't have to wait so long for that Nth shot?

Hacksaw as disarm-AA - make disarmed bombers lose their ammo and return to pad. Then give Hacksaw enough power to disarm Wyverns.

Could Domi get some kind of target-acquisition delay that would give raiders and crawling bombs enough time to get into firing range before the beam starts? Like a charge-time before opening fire? Then the Domi could be buffed without making mass-Domi too powerful.
+1 / -0


4 years ago
Mass domis are already not hard to counter, i think.
+0 / -0
{redacted}
Tank factory doesn't really need a buff, does it? It's very common. Kodachi and Panther are two very strong raiders. Why buff either of them?

Tremor buff could be fun, but is probably not needed. It's already very very good at making maps flat. Plus tanks probably have the strongest assault, so artillery is rarely needed (see rarity of Pillager).

A Tick damage buff would make them extremely cheesy early comm snipe units. I think the recent sight buff should be fine for now.

Dominatrix is very slippery slope. I don't really like the concept of slippery units or Domi in particular. Also white lines all over the map look very ugly/confusing/unclean/distracting.

Hacksaw can be removed, there's already Newton.

Recluse is probably only considered weak because other spiders got buffed/added. I'm a bit afraid of seeing spiders dominate flat land maps like amphibs are starting to. Spiders are already very powerful/viable on many maps.
+1 / -1
I agree that panther is quite weak, but personally I think domi already counters tanks quite hard. I've demonstrated this lots of times in 1v1 and besides, since when does LV need a buff against tanks? It's already very unbalanced in favor of LV (which is why panther buff makes some sense).

Regarding recluse, my suggestion was very minimal on purpose, its not some meta changing buff but it just makes it less of a noob trap unit now

I'm not a fan of big changes, balance should be fine tuned, not completely reworked every year or so
+4 / -0
Challenge with Domi is that it's *double*-slippery. Slippery first in that an accurate skirmisher can exploit Lancasters Square, and slippery second in that it's a capture unit.

Every discussion of the tank units ends with "it doesn't need a buff because Reaper."
+0 / -0

4 years ago
reaper isnt even good
+0 / -0


4 years ago
quote:
I think domi already counters tanks quite hard. I've demonstrated this lots of times in 1v1

Unless i'm mistaken, most of those demonstrations involved greater cost in domi than enemy could field in tanks. Under those conditions, a lot of things will work.
+1 / -0
I think justifying a unit being underpowered as "because its in a good factory" is stupid. The holy grail of balance is to make every unit feel useful and overpowered and awesome to use at the same time.

quote:
I agree that panther is quite weak, but personally I think domi already counters tanks quite hard.


It counters the tank raiders brutally, and is a deterrent to reapers.

quote:
Regarding recluse, my suggestion was very minimal on purpose, its not some meta changing buff but it just makes it less of a noob trap unit now


I think the Recluse has been bad at what it does for some time though, and it still is. You can counter Recluse by spamming missile tower. It should function like the rogue imo, something used to push into light defences.
+2 / -0
quote:
I too am hesitant to relive the slaughter of panther vs. glaive. I was too bad to reliably gauge their power at the time, but I remember using panthers to make ridiculous cost in big teams vs. both glaives and scorchers. This revert would further disincentivise bots near flats.


is it really a problem if the 300 metal raider beats the 65 metal raider (in direct combat, not at actual raider buisness) - for the price of sitting around on its 300 metal ass being useless as soon as enemy switches out of raiders?


panthers' only job is to counter other raiders, they can also with high micro effort kill the occasional stray reaper etc. thats it. i am fairly sure that it does not counter "the whole cloakie fac", in fact, it probably counters nothing except glaives and rockos/hammers.

(if you micro them all the time because you need to kill 4 rockos to make cost and you need 3 shots for each. if you face any serious amount of rockos they are at an advantage.)
+3 / -0
quote:
for the price of sitting around on its 300 metal ass being useless as soon as enemy switches out of raiders

Unshoe. Do Panthers really lose to Warriors, Rockos, or such?
+0 / -0
4 years ago
depends on micro and numbers, if you micro real hard you eventually win vs rockos, but any mistakes will be costly.

warriors for even metal should absolulety ruin panthers (tho maybe no in very small numbers?)
+0 / -0


4 years ago
Panthers snowball from stacking EMP. In larger numbers they can use their speed to engage warriors/rockos piecemeal and then evade. Used this way they do defeat cloaky. However, 1 tick and a lot of fragile 300m tanks die.
+0 / -0

4 years ago
As with most things ZK, it is about attrition. Panthers stay alive without taking loses. By default that is good point to start playing from.
+0 / -0
quote:
is it really a problem if the 300 metal raider beats the 65 metal raider (in direct combat, not at actual raider buisness)

Panthers would be able to kill an indefinite number of glaives just by kiting once there are 2 or more, just like they could with scorchers. I remember steamrolling everything with massive panther swarms. A unit that fast should never have the ability to hardcounter raiders, especially when the rest of the fac can smash just about anything that isn't a raider.
+1 / -0
well the last part isnt actually true, the whole fac heavily depends on careful micro and picking of fights together with lots of repair (which also mandates that you get a break to do that, which isnt always the case). metal for metal, tanks loose to lighter units, as all heavies do.

that a counter of something kills an indefinite number of that thing isnt necessarily a problem, riots do that all the time. its true that panther would be an exception because of its speed, but its role is so narrow and its usefulness outside of killing raiders so limited that i think its not a problem. real riots are useful for all kinds of things, not just countering raiders (which they arent even so great at).

that said, i used panthers a lot too before they were nerfed, but the main reason why it was often succesful was because enemies did the wrong thing. they fed panthers with insufficient numbers of possible counters, or tried to attack with raiders, etc. the stun makes them win against smaller number without any losses, as it makes sense for the factory because this is how tanks work, and you beat them the same way you beat the rest of the factory, by not letting them bleed you dry.
+0 / -0
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