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The new terraform is the new Heavy killer? Is it good? should it be change?

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12 years ago
Let's start off with my battle:
http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/95552

I brought my Reaper and banisher in to enemy base, did some damage, no problem
Rafal[OK] decided to terraform the ground beneath ( not infront not behind, directly beneath) my unit, so far so good
notice, my unit DID NOT stop moving
the instance the ground was terraformed,my tank stuck and can no longer move. and helplessly fall into the sea pit and lay there to be kill and reclaim.

I am not angry that I lost the battle, I don't care if the terraform is buff, terra wall is fine (been used in almost every battle now), low metal cost is ok, faster terra form speed is acceptable. but drowning terran sensitive units is ridiculous.
imagine: dante charge you base, drown him, goli? drown him, reaper and banisher? drown them with ONE caretaker. you may even stuck the ship to land if you terraform the sea. you may stop ligh veh with your build power.

whoo hoo nice mechanic. boom you got a clay model game in place of an strategy game. NICE, real nice.

I am not against terraforming
I just think that at least a MOVING unit should not be stuck by terraforming. either with restriction over no terraforming under or near moving unit or slowed down the terraforming speed so that the unit have time to get out as long as they are moving.

Rafal[OK] believed that this mechanic is fun. But I believe that as a strategy game, Zero-K should be more focus on strategic than cheap trick like this.

I will take a break from Zero-K untill it is clear that the majorities of player decided to keep this mechanic OR if they reject, untill the dev has fixed it.

I will be looking forward to replies
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12 years ago
I am surprised noone made a thread about my abuse of terraform earlier. :D
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12 years ago
seams pretty reasonable to me.

1) you were stopped
2) he still had stuff left
3) Engie power hoooooooo
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12 years ago
Blocking terraform around hostile units sounds reasonable.
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12 years ago
I always find it hilarious if my units get terra'd down... Also I once did this to an enemy Goliath and it made my day. :]

But I admit the tactic is very very cheesy, so I'm gonna +1 Anthem.
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12 years ago
The units were static and only started moving just as they were trapped. It is pretty hard to trap moving units, someone should make a widget to find out just how hard.

No terraforming on opponent units sounds fiddly to use and hard to implement. Does anyone have a well defined way to do this? But burying does look a bit easy especially since the terraform cost change. So I have increased the resources paid before terraform starts which will make it quite a bit harder to trap moving units.

I've seen people counter this with an entourage of constructors, nearby nano turrets or seismic missiles.
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the Terraforming was beneath and too fast, the unit has NOT STOP MOVING (I keep ordering move order, speed maybe slowed but not stopped)(confirmed in replay the unit walk right into the terraforming zone and stuck (i.e terraforming started after unit moved not before)). it was Stopped by terraforming IMMEDIATELY. there maybe luck element but it is just too much. the old terraforming is much slower

Thank you GoogleFrog. appreciated. Can I ask when is it implimented so I can go back to play?
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Skasi
12 years ago
quote:
[16:26] Sphiloth Caretaker is slightly UP


:)
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12 years ago
Why nerf a counter for heavy units everyone is able to do but hard to pull off. I tried it once and if they are moving and not stationairy like here it is very hard to pull off. I am sure it is harder to counter reaper/banisher normally than most other unit combinations, besides sumo/grizzly maybe.
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NLrankswappan
Because it is not a strategy but a cheezy trick and if it is as you said "hard to pull off" relied on luck, not on skill
and it is unbalance as metal for terraforming <<< metal for goli etc
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12 years ago
use skill to prevent -> keep them units moving, watch out near caretakers, conblob and kill them first. Keep units spread out so he cannot terraform them all at once. use own cons to terraform back.
use skill to pull off terratrick -> have metal reserve, navigate cons nearby, terraform at the right time.
Try to do it yourself, it is pretty hard and not only luck.

+0 / -0
NLrankswappan

how many time do I have to repeat my self? the unit is MOVING, I would not have raged if My unit was static, it was moving.

it is still not solve the unbalance thing, too little cost for too much damage

and it is no longer an enjoyable game ( my tanks was immobilized the moment the terrafom hit, further terraform was just to stop them from attacking ).

it may require skill but it is just down right ridiculous ( imagine:"we are at war my comrades, and we have to dig the land from our enemy feet to win.")
if I want to play terraform I play Simcity, I came to Zero-K to play WAR game as quote:
"Zero-K is a free real time strategy (RTS), that aims to be the best open source multi-platform strategy game available :-)"

side note (unimportant I think) I did target con and caretaker first, caretaker range was just too large. and he immobilized 2 quite separated unit with less than 1 sec of terraforming

other side note, in my scenario even if I have con it will just be a terraform battle(i.e. enemy dig hole, my con raise), and as I am attacking, with my unit immobilized and potentially unable to attack. my con will be kill quickly or unable to amass enough build power.
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i agree with sortale. i endured it myself a few times and and pretty much cancels out the use of heavies entirely, because you cannot get them near rafals constructors, ever. i must admit that it probably does take a lot of skill and some luck to pull off, but the result is just too strong. trapped tanks are good as dead, and the trick is ridiculously cheap for what it does. even worse, its not a counter that you actually have to build in a factory, its built in in something you already have anyway, like your com. bear in mind, a reaper tank cannot kill a com that uses this trick, while it can kill multiple coms that dont use this trick. heck, the reaper cant even kill a single engineer. constructors are supposed to be weak non-combat units, not super cheap counters to heavies.

a possible solution would be to let terraform speed develop delayed, or in a quickly rising curve, so the first second or so would be slow and after that speedy terraform would kick in.
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Yeah the solution would be to delay start of the terraform, for something like 5 seconds, so that the attacker can see enemy trying to dig under his units and has a chance and time to move them before they get burrowed.
Would make it harder to use and more balanced because right now it is very easy once you practice a few times.




I think the funniest way I used this trick was in one FFA game on Lava Highground map. My enemy porced and was making superunits. Eventually he made Jugglenaut. There was like 5 minutes of silence from him then suddenly I see Jugglenaut inside armed transport flying to my base. My first thought: I am screwed, gg. So he dropped Jugg in the middle of my base, next to my nanos. So I selected the nanos and start digging under the Jugg hoping to block him. Then suddenly POOF! - no more Jugg - to my great surprise as soon as my hole reached lava level Jugg with almost full HP instantly died. Best FFA ever! :)
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12 years ago
Sortale, blustering and threatening not to play is not the way to raise this issue. Nor is shouting at people who think it's okay. There is a pretty good consensus here that this tactic is too strong, and Google has already implemented a fix, calm down.

Terraform is really hard to balance for creative competitive play. Most of the actual uses for it feel exploitative. This on in particular. +1 to having a delay before it starts, we'll see how this plays.

Personally, I'd like terraform to be able to be shot at and destroyed, the way DT's used to be able to or even the way you could when it used to just be a building like any other and lowering its HP lowered the terraform completion %. The technical problem with this is determining the actual point that must be fired at.
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12 years ago
AUrankAdminSaktoth

muh, I just need a break and this came at the right time. beside, I think that I could freely decide to take a break from a game that limited me in anyway (can't use tank cuz of terraforming) as a personal choice (threat unintended). it maybe cheesy to said that but I guess that's how I am.

I am not shouting at people who opposed my view (i.e Rafal[OK]), I am shouting ar people who comment without even bother to read at least the opening post (i.e Swappan).


that said I apologize for any inappropriate behavior or speech that may have happen.

I also express gratitude for the devs to fix this problem. AUrankAdminGoogleFrog.
thank you for your time in this matter.
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12 years ago
Delay terraform by 5 seconds would stop this cheese. Googlefrog has done this to me so many times.
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http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/95758

As this game demonstrates though, that's not the only use of terraform.

The enemy was easily able to bog the game down with huge amounts of terraforming in the middle. This allowed them to massively out-eco us, when otherwise we would have continued our aggressive push. It slows and bogs the game down so much.

I'm really not sure terraforming in it's current state has a place in the game when played to a competative level without adding a really strong counter: Like being able to shoot it to destroy it, or a cheap and accessible weapon similiar to the seismic.

I've felt this way a long time but didn't really have good grounds to push it because it was not being heavily exploited. Now it is.
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terraform for restoring and ramps is ok.
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12 years ago
I didn't see anything wrong with Sak's game. Maybe terra is too cheap but it's cost was halved recently as a crazy experiment.

The terraform in the middle of that game was completely unsupported. At any stage you could have lowered part of the the wall and attacked through the gap. You barely tried to do anything about it like the team on the right was the only one able to terraform and you weren't.
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