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Is puppy supposed to "delete" reclaim?

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GBrankTechAUmNu
20 months ago
(edited 20 months ago)
Usually in a battle if one player pushes and loses all their units, there are wrecks left behind from those units when they die that the defender can reclaim. Suiciding units "feeds" the winner of the engagement. Giving defenders advantage.

Puppy does not leave a wreck when it is killed, so this extra income doesn't exist.

Is this intended?

At the moment you can spam puppy into enemy without actually feeding them. Which doesn't seem right at all.


A good example is this game where GBrankczesio spammed puppy the whole game. We had no reclaim at all as it all got instantly turned into puppies. http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/1581880
+4 / -0

ZArankAstran
20 months ago
Yes it is supposed to delete reclaim. In general puppies suck because they are easily killed by area attacks or ranged attacks. That's why you cloak them. Cloaked puppies are quite dangerous. Cloaked puppies are also a reason that you need a flea screen (amongst 100 other reasons). But, nobody builds a flea screen.

FWIW Czesio is a pain in the ass for his team too because he eats all their reclaim as well when he is in his puppy spamming phase. ;) On the other hand if he manages to take control of the game and win it with puppies .... well, that's the point. As long as you spot a puppy swarm any area attack will deal with them easily. I suggest Firewalker for general area denial to a swarmer.
+0 / -0

LVrankSenaven
20 months ago
(edited 20 months ago)
quote:
At the moment you can spam puppy into enemy without actually feeding them. Which doesn't seem right at all.


Puppy cost metal so every puppy spam can be countered by cheaper units or counter units. And it will still deny reclaim because puppy will eat reclaim and even if it leave wreck it will be less metal so circle can be repeated.
If you cant claim reclaim as defender then defend-reclaim concept doesn't work because if you cant protect reclaim from enemy puppy then you cant protect it against enemy units as well. Puppy cant reproduce from reclaim if its in cloak so its big limitation for puppy strategy. Its not argument that puppy is op reclaim eater if you send only cons reclaiming and wonder why enemy puppy kills them..
There is several way to counter puppy spammer. They have problems with cost and low health. Also if enemy looses his cloaker then its pretty costly loss.
Eating metal with puppy is double edge for both teams if they can fast reach reclaim.
I didn't watch game. Did he managed make cost with them? Its also another factor.
+1 / -0


AUrankAdminGoogleFrog
20 months ago
Puppy is meant to leave a wreck when it is killed, like any other unit. If it doesn't then there is a bug.
+1 / -0
GBrankTechAUmNu
20 months ago
(edited 20 months ago)
AUrankAdminGoogleFrog
quote:
Puppy is meant to leave a wreck when it is killed, like any other unit. If it doesn't then there is a bug.


So this is a bug then?



Should there not be a "return 2" at the end of this?
https://github.com/ZeroK-RTS/Zero-K/blob/a46b58b082cbeb5cafb1cd3d8a5dae59dfd9cfb9/scripts/jumpscout.lua#L238
+1 / -0


AUrankAdminGoogleFrog
20 months ago
(edited 20 months ago)
Hmm. That would only stop it leaving a wreck when it takes "massive damage" (which admittedly is most of the time). It also didn't have corpse set in its unitdef.

Fixed: https://github.com/ZeroK-RTS/Zero-K/commit/6a47659b1f77801a9db631ef4840541ebe57b26c

In practice this is a situational change. I expect most Puppy swarms to leave very little reclaim as it will be quickly absorbed by other Puppies. So swarms will effectively be a bit larger, but then drop some reclaim at the end if they are all killed. This could be a buff, but if so, then making Puppy more expensive to offset the cannibalism bonus seems fine.
+3 / -0

HRrankMajo
20 months ago
Considering the over-kill damage destroys reclaim of weaker units, would it be possible to separate that damage into stages or increase the amount of damage needed for over-kill to try to keep as much reclaim as possible?
It will not matter much in larger fights and battles due to quantity of units shooting at one another but if it had stages it would make smaller fights more lucrative for reclaim.
Like you have Picket vs Flea compared to Lotus vs Flea, Picket will over-kill the Flea to the point it doesn't even leave the "scrap" reclaim, while Lotus will 50/50 either leave the entire corpse or leave "scrap".
If it was separated into stages it would remove the over-kill mechanic of strong single hits, Picket for example would have to shoot the Flea and it's reclaim 3 times to destroy it, once to kill the Unit, twice to kill the corpse and thrice to kill the scrap.
+0 / -0