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Title: [A] Teams All Welcome #2
Host: Nobody
Game version: Zero-K v1.11.4.0
Engine version: 105.1.1-1696-g311f4e2
Battle ID: 1607030
Started: 19 months ago
Duration: 18 minutes
Players: 27
Bots: False
Mission: False
Rating: Casual
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19 months ago
Fucking hilarious balancer thinks missing 1 player is a bonus when a nearly all the extra income goes to noobs.
+1 / -0
It actually implicitly thinks that the extra income is shared evenly between all other players. Most of whom are noobs.

More specifically, it doesn't care about players at all: it just compares team averages, so having more/less players is just ignored. EG if you have a team with 3000, 2800, 1600 and remove the 1600, then the average jumps massively up and it thinks that's great! And i actually suspect that quite a few ZK players will also think that kicking the 1600 would boost the win chance of this team.

The part where this becomes a mistake is that sure, increasing the team's average skills by dropping players diminishes the amount of mistakes the team can do (because it's higher-ranked on average) - but also, it reduces the amount of things it can in general do at all (because it has less hands for input). And actually often doing wrong things right now is better than doing right things too late.

Unfortunately, we have no real way to evaluate the size of that effect.

( At least, precisely, so that it can be used by an algorithm to balance teams; we definitely can evaluate it as "this sucks, what the fuck" - but that doesn't help )
+0 / -0
19 months ago
Don't purple players have 8 hands?!

I think while the analysis about hands is quite relevant for smaller games, the larger the game it matters less and less if there is one/more less player.

For me the stranger thing about the balancing above is that rank wise one team has better good players, like (using the current casual rankings - might change in the future):
  • TinySpider (1) higher than Lu5ck (6)
  • bloa (68) lower than Notung (36)
  • MadWaffles (108) lower than lxa4000 (48)
  • rollmops (134) lower than [VCO]BILLLLLLLLL (104)
  • Secupro (182) lower than zini (131)
  • m00nduster (184) higher than tivoris (258)
  • m1sterX (248) higher than TROGLODITA (261)

Except TinySpider, the next 4 players in order of rank have lower ranks than the other team. Even if the difference for the other players is large, I think a difference in good players will make more impact.

Then again I have seen other balances that seemed to doom one team and it did not go the way I imagined.

It would be fun to make predictions in first 2-3 minutes of the game (by specs or people on the forum) to check if we as people can really spot bad balances or not.
+0 / -0