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Siegebots - New Factory

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Hello,

I am working on a new factory called Siegebots. They are pretty much a premium bot factory as the units are generally tough yet pricy. It has been playtested in 1v1 and teams but I would like more feedback to help balance the factory.

To play with them please type in the following while in game lobby:

!game Siegebots





Currently there are 10 units with plans to add more.

After playing please post feedback here so I can note it.


Siegebot Factory:

Ranger - Constructor - 165m (Has laser with is capable of killing a bot)
Ares - Raider - 90m (Has dual laser guns. 360hp, 97 spd. 100dps. 228 range)
Cougar - Heavy Raider/Riot - 220m (Has heat mechanic to lower DPS like stardust)
Catapult - Shelling Artillery - 380m (Shoots 4 high arc shots in 2 bursts 280dmg each, has mobile radar.)
Apollo - Assault Bot - 700m (6k Health, around 70 speed, has manual fire for terrain missiles with 45s reload)
Boreas - Anti Air - 500m (High range missile AA unit)
Shiva - Bunker Buster - 700m (1.5k Health, long range sniper. 620 dmg a shot, around 12s reload. Has AoE.)
Atlas - Siege Mech - 2500m (8k HP, around 56 speed, 500-570 range, gauss/missiles, +15HP combat regen)
Ragnarok - Nuclear Bomb Carrier - 4000m (24k HP, 35 speed, suicide unit with a weak gun. Nuclear missile death explosion.)
Thor - Dual Lightning Bot - 500m (1.7k hp, Skirmy stun unit, has lightning guns.)


Do note the factory is still a Work In Progress. Please report anything notable in this thread so it can be looked into or addressed.


What's Planned:

Factory new model
Ranger - new model
1-2 more units
More model adjustments


Special thanks to Garfild, Zarconite, and whoever else assisted me with learning various things in blender and for various models.


*On another note first time download speed varies person to person. Sometimes it can take a minute or even 5ish minutes. Just an observation I have noticed.

+9 / -0
Mod has updated, your lobby will say 2.49 now.

Notable changes:

Cougar dps increased to 220(not accounting for heat)

Tactical AI changes/fixes(attack move)

+0 / -0

30 hours ago
no download me 2.49 version
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29 hours ago
done. works fine
+0 / -0
quote:
Quantum Bomb Carrier - 4000m (24k HP, 35 speed, suicide unit with a weak gun. Nuclear missile death explosion.)

I've done some stuff to make a similar unit: https://vimeo.com/593377065?share=copy&fl=sv&fe=ci

The reason it's so weird is that there are game design issues with an unstoppable 4000m nuke that you could lob with gravity and ignore any need for antis. So instead, this is a channeling-cast EMP shockwave unit: The idea is that it deploys, and then once the animation is complete and the channeling period is over, everything in a nuke radius is stunned for 30 seconds or so, including the unit itself.

Then any assets positioned around the stun zone can go in for the kill. Raiders, aircraft, a prepared execution-drop squad, you name it.


This was also supposed to be a strider, going into the strider hub.

This was abandoned because i kinda lost interest, but also converting the animation to lua was going to be super annoying. But these days we can have gltf-packed animations *inside the model* in the engine, so maybe it can be reanimated.
+0 / -0
I agree it can potentially have game design issues. To help alleviate it potentially it can not be manually deteonated instantly. Instead it will have to be killed or control-K with a short timer.


Although for the cost I do not think it will be too crazy, the death radius atm is 640 elmo.

In the end it needs to be tested thoroughly to determine whether it needs to be changed based on whetehr it feels bad/unfair or n not. If it turns out a bit too much it will be adjusted accordingly.

Your emp idea is interesting. I will keep it in mind.
+0 / -0
Replaced apollo model with new model and added a manual fire option for it.

Apollo reworked.


should be version 2.86
+0 / -0

16 hours ago
2.91 update:

various patches for targeting for con and cougar.
+0 / -0


10 hours ago
I played some games today and was impressed. There is still a lot to do and polish, so I won't comment so much on balance or minor visual things. A lot of the effects and models seem to be placeholders or WIP.

I also haven't really compared these units head-to-head with those of other factories or really looked into the stats. This is hampered by the lack of a repository to refer to (I could extract the sdz, but that can wait). So don't go violating Quant's Rule just because I say things like "unit X might be a bit slow/tough/whatever".

Ranger - This feels like a reasonable design. Cost is between Conch and Welder but it is fairly fragile. The fire arc was very annoying but I hear you've since fixed this. It felt fairly slow. My main concern is that it doesn't fit as a bot con because it's name doesn't start with con.

Ares - As the light raider I have the least to say about this until it is really tested head-to-head. As it is, Bandit speed makes it pretty close to Bandit. I am a little concerned by Ares vs. Ares always resulting in one survivor on 1% HP. In other raider mirror matches the projectiles flying through the air create a lot of space for equal trades.

Cougar - This initially felt like it made Ares obsolete, but with more play I saw that Ares had a small niche. Cougar is definitely not a riot due to its speed and riot matchups. Ares and Cougar should just be the two raiders. I was most impressed by how bad Cougar seemed to be against defenses, and at dealing sustained damage in general, which gives Ares a niche. Ares could lean into that niche with more speed and/or damage. It is fine for a factory to have a main raider and a more niche one, and these two seemed to share space a bit more evenly than most. I would expect Cougar to end up with nerfs when compared to other factories.

Catapult - This unit is ok. I barely built it due to what was going on in the rest of the factory, but short-ranged burst AoE artillery is a decent role to fill. The high AoE risks inducing a lot of Fighting the UI in the enemy, because the shots really shouldn't be hitting clumps of units, yet they are devastating when they do. The downside of high trajectory and inaccuracy is that most turrets are small when viewed from above. This is the problem Badger mines were designed to solve, but the high AoE of Catapult also solves it. Whether it creates too many other issues remains to be seen.

Apollo - Didn't really build this either. 4.2k health for 630 is awkward and less than Minotaur. The projectiles also seemed very fast for an assault so it is hard to tell whether things should be dodging them. They aren't plasma as the description suggests (they seem to be a speedy Halberd bullet), but visuals can be changed, although in general I prefer it if weapons are reused with similar visuals and stats, because it makes everything a bit more cohesive. A long range targeted manual fire on such a cheap unit is a lot, not even demi-striders get these. See Cold Take #39. It is also unclear why a bot factory wants a smooth weapon.

Iron Dome - Firstly, way back last decade, we decided names would be limited to one word. Plus might it get a bit dated? Anyway... this seems to be a heavy Angler and I'd be a bit worried about stepping on its toes. It should have script reload so as to not be very frustrating to use, or it could have individually larger missiles. I would not want to make it cost any more than 500 as AA shouldn't be survivable. That would ruin the ground interactions (so there is no AA strider).

Shiva - Shiva is a terrifying design. People were calling it "riot artillery" because it hits with the force of three Rippers at Stinger range. The AoE means it can outrange Stinger, which makes Catapult a bit obsolete. I'm not sure whether this design fundamentally breaks ZK or not. Units with more than around 420 range pay a premium for the privilege, often by having terrible stats or having trouble hitting anything (or both). So the question is whether Shiva has terrible enough stats. It has very slow turret turn speed, which may be a bit of a Fighting the UI issue in itself, but it does keep it from being amazing AA. The reload time of 12s is fairly long, although 1600 HP is quite a bit, and puts it out of Phantom range. I tried forcing Shiva for a few games, with some success. I suppose that once you have five of them you could have had a Dante. But I'm still concerned with how fun it is to play against. I expect Siegebot matchups to be defined by whether the factory can rush, tank, or outrange Shiva. That said, it wouldn't be interesting if the factory didn't have at least one unit on the edge of completely breaking the game.

Atlas - Didn't see this one in action. It's a bit weird that it has rockets and gauss, does it need this? Cyclops has two weapons, but it needs them because they do very different things. Perhaps this is ok at 2.5k metal. I am not sure how I feel like having a demi-strider that makes it sound like someone built a Detriment. The gauss spam bug seems to be easy to cause with this unit (I saw it after a bit of testing), which is ok for Det but probably not for such a cheap unit.

The Status Effects Unit - You didn't list this unit and I forget what it was called. The EMP:Damage ratio on the lightning is bad enough that it should have similar graphics and sound of Venom, not Knight. The effect for the slow bomb also seemed to be broken, so it was hard to tell what it was meant to be doing. I'm not sure how I feel about it. Two weapons on a 500 cost unit is a lot. They sort of do the same thing, but also one has AoE while the other is point target. But they are both status effects. That said, mixing status effects on one unit like this has a kitchen sink/mary sue feel. You'd probably get a stronger design if you picked, say, the lightning, and stuck with it.

Quantum Bomb Carrier - This is a simple idea that has been knocking around for a while. A lot of design work would need doing to solve all the obvious issues with it, where it would just delete large swathes of strategy space once the game reaches that point. Also, demi-strider cost prettymuch caps out at 2.5k. Even above 2k is a bit much. So if this unit were added, it would go in the Strider hub. The factory should probably have a bomb (just like the constructor should start Con-), in which case the obvious gap is disarm. Seismic and ground fire are other possibilities, although seismic would be a bit niche and weird for a bot, while fire maybe means the factory wants fire elsewhere too.

On the models in general I would suggest finding some artistic way to bring the arms in. Firing weapons from the extreme edges of unit is cursed for many reasons. Units can still look like they fire from the edges without having that many problems. Eg Reaver is mostly fine. The models that do this also look a bit similar when zoomed out.

I'm not sure what the theme of the factory is. Bot factories tend to be fairly theme, this is just heavy. Which are the units that the factory wants to build (ie because it follows its best game plan), and which are those that it builds to react to problems? These are the sorts of things that will take quite a while to figure out as the units are brought in line with each other. Names are also hard. Other factories have an overarching theme, or a few interacting mini-themes. We don't have that many names of gods, but iirc they're scattered over miscellaneous units and structures rather than being in factories. Siege equipment could be a mini-theme, which you've already got going with Catapult (perhaps we could put Ram in somewhere).
+1 / -0

6 hours ago
Thank you alot for the feedback.

I will be noting it and adjusting some things accordingly.
+0 / -0
Update 2.93:

Thor no longer has slow gun. Has dual lightning guns now to make sense with name. Slow gun would miss too often/buggy sometimes.

Ares:
speed buff 93->97
Dmg per shot 30->31
Range nerfed 235 -> 228

Apollo:
HP buff 4.2k-->6k
Speed buff 66.5 -- 75.5
Damage per hit 250->280
Weapon velocity lowered slightly
Cost 630m -> 700m

Cougar:
Range nerfed 263->260
Cost 200m -> 220m

Irondome renamed to Boreas and is less burst feeling.
Cost decreased to 400
Range decreased to 1000

Bomb carrier renamed to Ragnarok

+0 / -0
4 hours ago
I have some ideas going for the suicide tank.

make it 30K HP, but It cannot shoot, and if its killed When being Affected by PEM/Disarm, it won't explode.
Another Idea i thinked off, make it that It has a defense mechanism, making it imposible to be carried/lifted/pushed over by allies and enemies equally, making it fairer(I think its spelled like that) because you don't have to care about someone sending in a hercules with a trinity warhead on your head.
If the gun won't be removed, then make it shoot anything except damage at all (slow, EMP, Disarm, choose as you wish), so the tank can support the ongoing siege(beside the status effect are fun :D).

I would suggest the addition of a new riot, because the cougar feels like a heavy raider(based on the opinions of the lead developer), so, a riot bot wich shoots like a reaver but its a shotgun instead of a mg (see the AA12/USAS12 shotgun for inspiration), would hit harder than a 300 meteor attack from the zenith, this would make a riot which has DPS and crowd control, but im just saying.

be advised, im not a tryhard veteran, in fact Im not even a veteran of RTS games at all, so take my opinion based on the fact Im not an expert in RTS games, even less at Zero-k.
+0 / -0

4 hours ago
I am likely going to create a mid range heavy flame riot bot that will be relatively slow(around 50 elmo). I will start working on it either today or tomorrow. By tomorrow evening it should be functional and in game.
+0 / -0
2 hours ago
Can't find it. So if I enter !game Siegebots in the command line of the lobby then it should appear in the factory selection with the others? Or how?
+0 / -0

31 minutes ago
!game Siegebots should work.


2.95:

Apollo HP lowered to 3.8k
Speed 69.5
damage per shot 280
around 1.5 reload

Missiles dmg fixed back to lower values
+0 / -0