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Title: teams
Host: AUrankAquanim
Game version: Zero-K v1.5.4.19
Engine version: 103.0.1-764-gae7487f
Started: 4 months ago
Duration: 24 minutes
Players: 8
Bots: False
Mission: False
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Team 1 Won!
XP gained: 112
CHrankConnetable
DErankXivender
ROrankSigero
GBrank2plus2is5
Team 2 Lost
XP gained: 81
CHrankAdminDeinFreund died in 24 minutes
CZrankanonymise737 died in 24 minutes
AUrankAquanim died in 24 minutes
SErankjenbak died in 24 minutes
Spectators
SErankcleanrock
CHrankgranateboy




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AUrankAquanim
4 months ago
Sumo seems a little bit too good.
+0 / -0


AUrankSnuggleBass
4 months ago
[Spoiler]
+0 / -0


DErankChesti
4 months ago
(edited 4 months ago)

quote:
My guess is that after this demonstration sumo is going to get abused the crap out of in teams


It already does since weeks.
- Sumo denies crabe very good
- very cheap unit to rush and very powerful in early game with support
- can pull -> push krow into own porc
- can tank a good amount of damage


aaaand it can hold off (other unsupported OP sumos :D
+0 / -0


AUrankSnuggleBass
4 months ago
Yeah I've always liked the interplay with crabe. It's a nice organic answer to crabe spire.

I think it will be abused more. I know it's what I'm going to do when I get the chance.

What units are good for supporting it? Does it even want placeholders? I know jacks kind of work..., and firewalkers are well protected behind them.
+0 / -0


CHrankConnetable
4 months ago
I've read that HP is independant from weight, so it could actually be possible to adjust weight without changing anything else in the balance.
+0 / -0


PLrankAdminSprung
4 months ago
(edited 4 months ago)

You're confusing weight with mass.

Sumo gravguns work on mass. Mass is dependent on max health; it is a function of max health and cost. Current health does not affect mass (ie. damaged units do not get easier to throw).

Weight is a term used for cost in the context of other stats (ie. changing weight means changing both the cost, and other relevant stats proportionally).

Technically nothing prevents mass from being set arbitrarily, including being updated dynamically on a live unit (for example due to damage or status effects). However being a function of other stats and staying constant is done by design; else it'd be very hard to gutfeel the mass.
+1 / -0


AUrankAquanim
4 months ago
You might want to clarify the difference between 'health' and 'max HP'.
+0 / -0


AUrankSnuggleBass
4 months ago
Wait it's already derived?

Huh.

Now I feel silly.
+0 / -0

GBrankLlamadeus
4 months ago
(edited 4 months ago)

Does mass scale linearly with max hp? If so, shouldn't it be scale with some power of hp? Since we expect mass to scale with the volume or surface area of the unit, but "toughness" to be sorta proportional the thickness of the armour to an extent. Although it occurred to me that if it's something like max hp * cost that's basically hp squared since those two are quite well correlated...
+0 / -0


PLrankAdminSprung
4 months ago
mass = (((buildtime/2) + (maxHP/8))^0.6)*6.5

+0 / -0



CHrankAdminDeinFreund
4 months ago
The root (^0.6) inherently makes gravity more valuable vs expensive units D:
+0 / -0

GBrankLlamadeus
4 months ago
Ah, yeah I'd have expected it to work the other way
+0 / -0


PLrankAdminSprung
4 months ago
Feel free to suggest a better equation.

Remember that mass also affects Valk transportability though, and it's probably the more important mass-derived stat.
+0 / -0


AUrankAquanim
4 months ago
Assuming maxHP and cost are both proportional to unit 'size', that equation means that mass is proportional to size^(1.2) which seems more like what you were expecting.
+0 / -0

GBrankLlamadeus
4 months ago
Are you sure? I looks like x + x^0.6 to me rather than x^1.2
+0 / -0


AUrankAquanim
4 months ago
Yeah, cancel that, I misread the equation.

In any case, considering the mass of a given unit is less useful than considering the acceleration induced by the force of a newton/sumo/whatever (taking into account friction, etc. as well). Which is itself less useful than considering the utility of those weapons and how much more likely they make you to win the game.
+0 / -0



EErankAdminAnarchid
4 months ago
(edited 4 months ago)

I think the equation should be fitted such that it describes the desired game effects, so it may be useful to list them in terms of what units a single Sumo should be able to throw, which to drag, which to merely slow down, and which to be useless against.

Also a variable to consider is that the unit's own velocity may affect its ability to fight gravity weapons as long as it's not unglued from surface (or can propel itself in air).

Here's my initial take on that list.

Scythe, Pyro, Hermit: thrown (propelled with enough acceleration to detach from ground)

Ravager, Scallop, Halberd, Felon: thrown in rare situations, pulled in most

Reaper, Crabe: pulled (moved against will but not accelerated enough to detach from ground and fly unless falling off a cliff).

Wyvern, Krow: pulled or held, perhaps respectively.

Grizzly, Goliath: held (cannot attack into a pushing, non-slowed Sumo; cannot retreat from a pulling Sumo)

Dante, Funnelweb, Scorpion: slowed down or unaffected

Bantha, Detri: unaffected
+2 / -0


PLrankAdminSprung
4 months ago
Spring is very inconsistent with impulse though; it might not be possible to reliably create such relationships.
+1 / -0



EErankAdminAnarchid
4 months ago
Perhaps if it behaves at least mostly like that, that's enough. After all, some units are going to have intermediate behaviours anyway.
+0 / -0


AUrankAquanim
4 months ago
At a guess I would say that list of interactions is actually weaker than Sumo was pre-buff. I would have expected to give Ravager, Scallop, etc. a significant kick, and a Dante could be effectively prevented from retreating by a Sumo.
+1 / -0
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