Other facs against jumpers

There are talks going on here and there if Jumpers have OP units. And I want to bring it up. Having lost like 3rd or 4th game against jumpers in a row, not counting dozens before, I'd like to wonder if it's my skill (or lack of) or some Jumper units are OP for their cost.

Here are examples.

Shield fac: on the hilly areas Jacks do very well against typical shieldball participants: thugs, convicts, felons and outlaws. Basically they jump inside the ball, kill the felon. The rest of ball dies afterwards to Jacks or fast Pyros. In the same time Pyros can do zero-attrition raids to naked or semi naked exps. Puppy is also good to sneak and wait for naked cons to come to exp. Also the raids are paractically blocked as Pyro - Shields are too slow to react to such raids timely, so heavy porc is only option to defend distant sites. How shields are supposed to play against Jumpers? OP units here: Pyro for raider speed and riot damage, Jack for being ultimate counter to a shieldball - often the only mean shield fac player plays.

Cloaky fac: similar story here except that Glaive loses badly against OPuppy in the battlefield and thus cost-wise. Here warrior does well against Pyro in the direct combat, but ZK is not a boxing ring, so Pyro can always outrun/outjump warriors or if warriors are set in line then find a weak junction in the chain and break through. If Pyros break out, there is almost nothing can stop them. Glaives burn and die. Everything else is not fast enough. Again: either porc or crawling bombs set in advance. Should amount of warriors become excessive they can always be sniped by moderator. OP units here: Pyro for raider speed and riot damage, Puppy for killing glaives so easily.

HT. This is especially hillarios as one unit (Puppy) makes cost against almost whole fac. One exception may be Koda & Panther, if microed really well. I find it quite interesting that zero micro suicide unit makes cost against "tough" assaults like Reaper or Golly. Banisher may help but it's slowly overrun by puppies. OP units here: Puppy.

I'm sure similar story here except maybe Spiders. Basically, whole play of Jumps is centered around:
Pyro (speed + riot damage + fac/comm kill)
Puppy (neutral wreckages reclaim/multiplication + glaive and to some extent bandit instakill + swarm tactic).
Jack for being shields kryptonite.

I fully admit possibility that I miss something out, so feel free to suggest, argue and comment. Otherwise some adjustments should be made to OP units.

cloaky lab: still zeus and sniper... allways zeus and sniper... why do you build anything other then zeus and sniper vs jump? why would you even build anything other then zeus and sniper vs jump?

shield lab: have you tried the fast outlaw ball? its pwn, much pwn, infinite pwn...


some aditional notes from personal observations:
outlaw thug ball (3 outlaw 3 thug) can not be killed by jumpy lab without sumo(or similar level cost investment)

glaive are made of paper, thinking that they will beat enemy head on is where you went wrong... they are not really meant for fighting anything head on

jack is stronk, but im not sure this is a bad thing... jack fills the role of HP tank in a lab that on avarage has less then 1000hp in unit health

pyros are balanced now, llt pwn them, raiders pwn them, no complaints

puppies can not beat assult class units(taht repair), this is a fact of life... when enemy makes puppies, you make assults. no ifs, no buts, no misceleneous front parts...


replay of jumps vs fellon balls:
http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/278575

opinions:

quote: jacks need to be really lucky to kill a fellon ball, if fellon retreats sucsessfuly jack dies dealing no damage firevalkers are more effective then jack vs shields imo puppies are not the be all end all of raider game pyro are expensive and die to llt switch to air is much more effective then staying jumps

ivand I am no top 50 player in 1v1. But experienced enough to know some counters. I suggest lets test it. You can play Jumper and I will play whatever fac you want. Extra rule to compair factorys in the direkt way. No Defence building allowed except of 1 llt to protect factory from raiders.
That way you can maybe learn how to react or we have a lot of replays for GoogleFrog for rebalance stuff.
What do you think ivand? Lets do it?

quote: If this player would like, he will call you out, and both of you will show what could be made different to my play.

Ok but who is this player you talk about? If it is one of the top 20 that test make no sence at all, because he would beat me with every factory. Doesn't matter what fac he or me takes.

quote: Cloaky lab: Won't Zeus have troubles countering pure Pyro for same amount of metal? Puppy is probably second best mean to find snipers, second to fleas. Shield Lab: Shielded Outlaw is a good combo for early game, however it's short lived, as the amount of Pyros becomes more than 3. I'd guess after killing Outlaw, the rest (thugs or cnvicts) will fall. I admit, that 3 Outlaw + 3 Thug is tough combo to counter by Puppies, Pyros and Moders; however it's as slow as turtle. One could easily outrun/outjump this ball and raid distant expantions while "the ball" tries to catch up. The damaging power of Pyros can't be compared to the described combo, so the base or exps will go down much faster, than the ones attacked by ball. Quite a tricky explaination, but I hope I can be understood.

on outlaw balls:
the minimum is 3 thug and 3 outlaw, anything below that is verry vulnerable to raiders... lower numbers can be used for defence, but to attack you need at least that many
once you reach that number tho, the ball becomes imposible to kill with any number of raiders when used well

also 2.0 speed is fast, really scarry fast... most units are alot slower



you misunderstand the use of assult/high damage resistance units

generaly speaking outlaw shield balls and zeus do not need to chase units, you can simply march them into the middle of the enemy base and kill evrything

the only option your enemy then has is to:
1 send their unit to fight your assult force (and die, both tactics make 4x cost vs pyro)
2 kill your base faster then you can kill theirs

agression can be your shield and your sword, if you attack hard enough your enemy has no option but to come meet your army and fight it head on

Shadowfury333, Thanks man, I'm not that stupid as It might have looked. I was denied mentioning nickname, but everyone who knows this little secret (every rpl is stored) could have guessed whom I was talking about :)

:P @magman watch the replays and listen to the spectator trollmentary for those games ^.^

also you didnt use outlaw shield ball of doom even though you have nuf outlaws and nuf thugs

Magman, links you have provided don't seem to open correct games for me.


Proper ones are:

http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/279241
http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/279248
http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/279263

Also for the last game as far as I understood you had no limits on defence nor on facswitch.

Kyubey, your reply is quite philosophic. I was wondering what to do here really in more practical sense :)

I will definitely try ur suggested units configuration, I'm pretyy sure, though, it's going to fail, the way I wrote. Most likely to jack(s).

Kyubey
:D traning, determination, and russian ingenuity

Best counter suggestion so far :)