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Endgame balance, fun and interactiveness

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Hey,

I was thinking - everyone likes striders, right? It is my endgame fantasy to be able to crush enemies with some giant mech and I think many can relate to that. It's much cooler to fight with Dante than a Bertha. It's much cooler to pop up with Paladin than get nuked. It's much more oh-shit what can I do with it moment with Detriment than with a Zenith. Also another important fact is that because the threat is close to your base there's much more ways that you can react and counter it - that makes the game interactive.

With current price balance there's probably no incentive to ever build Detriment over DRP as for the extra metal that you basically earn between the time that Detriment leaves your base and starts doing anything you get instant value, much harder to counter, from the comfort of your base obliteration to enemies.

I find that disappointing and a bit boring. To fix that I suggest something along these lines:

Increase cost of Bertha by 2000, Nuke silo by 4000, Zenith by 6000 (it's much weaker than DRP), DRP by 12000, Starlight by 10000.

On the second note I think that DRP is a bit overpowered for its price naming the EMP bullet - its stun time could be significantly reduced.
+6 / -1


7 months ago
quote:
It's much cooler to pop up with Paladin than get nuked

No. Paladin is an ugly and janky unit that is for me unfun both to use and to counter.

I'd rather get nuked than get slowly attrited by a Paladin (for the same outcome) every time.
+5 / -0


7 months ago
Paladin could use some work, true. What would you change?
+0 / -0
I find two issues with Paladin:

1) Its optimal use is staying at range and being a death-proof Lance.

2) Its missile d-gun is unaesthetic and unpredictable and also best used at max range.

What i would do:

1) Unify range of hand cannons and head laser at ~= Stinger range. Maybe even get rid of the head laser because really, wtf. Head laser. Lol.

2) Make the missiles impact ground around a given target in a regular predictable pattern instead of uncontrollably derping around. Maybe also reduce range in exchange for this precision. A 3x8 line of impacts could work, so would some kind of a converging cross pattern or a linear rolling barrage. SetProjectileTarget provides the technical opportunity.

---

I guess you could say it turns Paladin into a big Grizzly. Well. Grizzly is a sucky unit too, but a big Grizzly is much more fun than an armored Lance with a disarm-Merlin bolted on top.
+4 / -0
pretty sure a lot of people enjoy using giant cannons, bertha. Otherwise I agree with the general statement, but the recurring argument is that they are needed to end the game so it doesnt go on forever.
Detriment is popular in ffa since they dont paint an enormous target on your base as the other 3 superweapons.
I always thought striders should be epicer(bigger), then their stats can be balanced accordingly if that ever happens.

In what way is grizzly sucky?
+2 / -0


7 months ago
quote:
In what way is grizzly sucky?

In the sense of being very annoying to fight against.
+2 / -0
quote:

I always thought striders should be epicer(bigger), then their stats can be balanced accordingly if that ever happens.


In 300k+ metal 10 k metal difference for super weapon won't really delay it much.

Also my main argument is fun to play against instead of fun to play as. Sure it's fun when your nuke hits unexpected opponent's base and destorys everything, but in terms of counterplay it's not looking great for the other side. Nuke is pretty binary example as you just spam antis and scout enemy and be safe. With DRP you can't even do that as there's no defence from it.

I totally agree with your points on reworking Paladin EErankAdminAnarchid, it sucks.

I wouldn't mind swapping its Dgun for something else as well, like overdrive increasing rate of fire by 300% for few seconds.
+0 / -0
quote:
I wouldn't mind swapping its Dgun for something else as well, like overdrive increasing rate of fire by 300% for few seconds.

The model has the missiles, so unless you're willing to procure a new one, they probably have to stay and the dgun has to be a missile-based one.
+0 / -0
7 months ago
Maybe replace the emp missiles with napalm missles? or slow or something.
I kinda like the paladin allthough the AI for it sucks big time.
The dante burn time should definetly be nerfed , anything thats not a super assault dies even if you have a bunch of builders repairing...
Detriment is the worst unit in the game tho, worst possible value for sure.
+0 / -0


7 months ago
Detriment could have its greennlazor turned into a linear aoe smoothing dgun waterweapon, so that it cannot be reliably burued
+0 / -0
Yea, we all love crushing nubs with giant mechs arent' we?

The thing is we really need ways to end games and ways to tip balance of battle in out favor, this can't be done with any existing strider.
Usually when large cluster game is past 30-40min mark it becomes extremely laggy, so I'd rather die from DRP than from 1 FPS...

What really needs to be done in zk balance wise ASAP
1. Nerf flea - swarms of those little suckers is one of the most annoying things that can happen in a large team battle on wide open map. It also induces lags when hundreds of those are on the move.
We either need to make it completely unattractive to build such enormous hordes that eat almost everything that doesn't spit fire on their way(yea, even riots) or we need hard limit for flea(which aint gonna happen)...
The only real counter on huge map is a swarm of swifts(30+), on smaller maps archer and outlaw are one of few things that work...
LLT, Leveler, even Warriors both die to mass fleas pretty easily(speed+micro). flea is just too damn fast and has too many DPS

2. Buff detri already, ffs. Why do we have to wait for years??? This shit is completely useless for its price tag.

3. Bertha could really use a rework...
+4 / -0
I also wanted to use this thread to brainstorm how to change striders that aren't that fun to play with like Paladin, Detriment and Funnelweb.

For detri I'd suggest shifting power from rockets to close range and adding short range (lotus) explosive teleport with dgun. Also increase its hp regent but reduce hp to make it more Bertha resistant. Explosive teleport is small singu sucking event where it was + damage and impulse to where it's teleporting to make space for it. Teleport should be instant or with a short delay. It's purpose would be avoiding terraform traps, riot reaction to swarms or simply closing distance for assaulting.

Also my suggested added price tag is not really much in end game terms.
+0 / -0

7 months ago
Detri needs more than a little buff...
+0 / -1
I would much prefer to see changes to Detriment and Funnelweb rather than Paladin and Nuke/Anti.

I'm inclined to agree that DRP represents more value for money than Zenith or Starlight.

My guess is that if Bertha is reworked, removed or owled, most of the maps on which it is strong will just lend themselves to some other degenerate play pattern instead. That doesn't mean I strongly believe no changes should occur though.

I think Detriment and Scylla in particular (as particularly concealable threats) need to be designed and balanced with their FFA usecase in mind. Paladin to some degree as well.
+2 / -0

7 months ago
AUrankAdminAquanim
quote:
I would much prefer to see changes to Detriment and Funnelweb rather than Paladin and Nuke/Anti.

Would yo be willing to help me with the new shield graphics then? :D
+0 / -0

7 months ago
Graphics are not really my line of work, I'm afraid.
+0 / -0


7 months ago
Some threats shouldn't be concealable so maybe detri can get personal shield ?
+3 / -0


7 months ago
sounds like you want to nerf detri even though you say its bad : P
But shield would be very kewl on such a titan..
+1 / -0

7 months ago
If detri is to be uncloakable, it should at the very least be able to present itself as a major threat. It should dominate the local battlefield where it is at as well as provide operational support to allied units. Perhaps change the arm cannons from crappy guass to longish range concussion shells mixed with rapid fire guass guns.

AA wise it could be buffed up as well. Instead of crappy pew pew guns, give it rapid fire brrrrt guns that shred air units. Let the guns spool up so over time it fires faster and faster shots. For a 25k unit, it should present itself as the end all be all unit of mass destruction. It's only 5k less than zenith ffs.
+7 / -1
Paladin is the anti-Det. Det is really not so useful because it loses to Paladin.
+0 / -0
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