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Title: Free For All Lobs
Host: unknownrankn0ddz
Game version: Zero-K v1.11.6.6
Engine version: 105.1.1-1774-g5e966db
Started: 5 months ago
Duration: 65 minutes
Players: 6
Bots: False
Mission: False
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USrankMudosaka, you played so dirty. Watch replay, i was constantly attacked by 2-3 players, and you just do anything to hit me, not for your win. it makes FFA unfun. If you join game you MUST try to win it - otherwise dont join it. It seems like bulling for me.
+1 / -3

5 months ago
I hardly think that's a fair assessment. I messed with Anir no little bit, and also enabled you to take out DJO without even contesting :D If you find it offensive that I play with the intent to have fun with winning as a secondary expectation(due to the inherent instability in FFA), I will refrain from joining your lobbies though. I also do wish to point out that you started attacking mason, which is basically removing the buffer player between us...
+0 / -0
5 months ago
First please watch replay for understanding all battle, then maybe you change your opinion. I didnt kill DJO or Mason. And you attacking me whole game without any reason, and still do it after you lost. It gives Anir free win. Your suicide attack on didnt change nothing he get reclaim more then lose.
+0 / -0

5 months ago
Starting out, you're by far the strongest, out-ecoing everyone, and most of us by a mile. After I kill your geo, and raid you, at 11 minutes, you still have the most income... just more than mine. Now at 14 minutes, we're basically neck-and-neck, mason is doing their own thing, DJO is, despite fighting you quite well, quite far behind, and Press and Anir are just finishing up their conflict with Presstab loss. At 17 minutes, you're ahead again and ecoing up faster as I wipe out some of Anir's economy and factories. About then, I also kill your attempted singu and likho Anir some more.

Here I could've wiped out Anir, but did not because 1) he would've been a massive pain to actually beat, and 2) I didn't have much radar on you or DJO at the moment, and didn't want to contest DJO for the Balkans and Russia. At 20 minutes, I reveal your Ducks in Denmark(which should definitely be a movie title for a Mighty Ducks continuation.) Then I scout you and call you a lob(so many ducks had me concerned for a second). At 22 minutes, mason and I have a small conflict, I likho his scallops, and we part peacefully, because simply put, he's a strong buffer between you and me, and also a good scapegoat for my scylla.

Mere minutes later, I murder your trinity and caretaker square, and also your moho(which kills basically nothing), after Likhoing your army to make comfy breathing room for my scylla. Then you start fighting DJO again(he's better than I thought), and lie about how much of the map I have. All good, that's classic FFA stuff :D Note that I offer to be scouted here, total transparency(which was a bad idea, in retrospect). Here, you and Anir now have the most income(reclaim-fueled, as I had no reclaim for basically the entire game), but Anir is behind you by 37k metal and I'm behind by 10k.

Here, I have an absurdly good attrition, and you have a terrible one, and Anir is still pretty irrelevant(as, up to this point, I still could've taken him out). At 27 minutes, I start building a trench to scylla Anir(which ends up being useless, as scylla range is worse than Eos), and I scylla DJO because he was doing way too well versus you for my comfort. By 28 minutes, his army is greatly reduced, and well away from you(see how I help?), and he's totally focused on one of my various duck armies(which he starts roasting hard). Then we have a very unstable peace, Anir scouts me, I scout you, blah blah. Then DJO attacks mason and gets cooked by scallops(bad unit). Then I fuck up my scylla usage and waste 4 missiles on an Artemis... but ignoring the fact that I don't know how to use scylla, I suppose by now I've messed with you more than Anir, even proportional to your insanely good start and earlygame. Note that now Anir has surpassed everyone in income by a lot and has the most singus(my mistake, I totally forgot how many mexes formerly-Soviet territory held. He also shoots my nuclear fission devices with tacnukes and rules with an iron fist, so that's how it is now). At 33 minutes I likho your singu for some horrible attrition.

Here Anir takes out DJO(surprise surprise! I need to build more Owls, and my apologies hedkeaf, for assuming you did). However, you are well and truly attacking mason now, which is very relevant, because I love using buffer players on Real Europe. At 35 minutes I start Zenith(which I was just bashing the game before but DRP has no range loblight costs too much). I scylla you and escape in one of the most daring moments of that game(no radar, just scylla sneak). Then mason silos you(you deserved it, undeniably). Then mason silos me(and misses, so if that was a fake just make it seem like we were fighting, admirable aim!). At 39 minutes Anir tacnukes my doubleSingu in base(because I'm too lazy to build singus properly), and I'm basically out of the game. Then I start fighting Anir, and that's fun because at that point I've given up all hope of winning(I was beginning to believe for a second, once Zenith came up, as long as I could keep mason alive). Note that here, I have 55 Buoys, 36 Archers, 165 Ducks, and 2 Scyllas, and every one of them is about to start fighting Anir, hopelessly, except for one scylla which you never kill despite sitting next to for like 5 minutes... the other one shoots Anir, naturally. He thunderbirds me(brilliant move, shame it did nothing). At 45 minutes I scylla you(just for fun, I'm even less relevant then mason at this point, minus my scyllas, 4 Athenas, and eco that Anir fails to kill for a solid 10 minutes.) Note that I can't touch Anir at this point, he's already unstoppable(also, I attacked him not expecting a completed Detri lel). At ~48 minutes I build a bridge to your moho(I didn't know or care who's, to hit with my scythes(they failed). I scylla you again, and am blocked by Funnelweb. At 51 minutes, you get halberd-raided for insane cost(why do you have unprotected singus versus know halberd-raider with Athenas?). At this point, Anir has eco'd hard enough to actually out-produce you by 40k metal.

Then the funniest thing I've seen in ages happens- you block a scylla shot to your nuke with a Hercules. Brilliant idea and execution, I was wondering what blocked my scylla shot. I knew the shields were down. Now my eco is all dead(thank Anir for that), and my scylla gets off one last useless shot. Also my last halberds cook one of your singus(build some buoys or something, or defensive scallops).

Actually, I lied- I had 8 more halberds wreck your main base and Trinity(sorry, not sorry). Then I resign, Anir starts snowballing infinitely, and the game is OVER!

So, treating all this equally, how did I play dirty. Scylla ain't dirty in FFA, as many times as I've been brutalized by it, especially seeing as you could've, you know, tried some screening.

If you're referring to the fact that I used mason as a shield, and prioritized his safety solely for my own benefit(despite the fact that I am undoubtedly one of the worst players when it comes to trying to keep newer/worse players alive at my own loss in FFA, up to and including resigning when it's an incredible mismatch and I want to give them a fighting or chance or not feel like they never had one), then I freely admit, that was a little dirty. But nothing other people don't do and appreciate(buffer players are extremely useful).

If you're referring to the fact that I ended up harassing you a lot more than Anir, let me make this quite clear- I wanted to harass everyone(which is why I scylla'd DJO), but Anir was far too difficult to harass, unless I started an all-out war with him(which I would've felt bad doing while he was weak from beating Presstab, because I know exactly how it feels to be in that spawn and have that happen), and couldn't reliably do later by the time I realized he needed to be cut down considerably without risking losing a lot of territorial authority to you, mason, or even DJO, hedkeaf.

And if you're referring to my post-game comments, that I prefer fun to trying to win, I believe you misinterpreted my words quite heavily, and ignored my comments mere minutes later, which clarified that I do try to win, but do not place my happiness on winning the same way I do in Small Teams and 1v1, instead choosing to place it on the joy of big explosions and satisfying deaths, and of chilling instead of truly putting every effort into victory(regardless of whether or not I troll occasionally in teams, I do try and win). I do this because FFA has an innate risk to any sort of expectation of victory, especially on maps like Europe(despite being the most fun!).

If you expect me to play like I have to win to ensure my own happiness every time, then I'll refrain from joining your lobbies, but I think such an undeservedly vicious response to another player's playstyle is not at all fair, and I find your accusations quite false.
+6 / -0
It is interesting to see such a detailed answer, Thank you.
Well, first of all, I want to clarify that, of course, the use of scylla and any other units and buildings, I do not consider it a dirty game and welcome. It is also absolutely normal in FFa to attack the strongest player, as this evens out the balance of the game. However, it is worth correctly determining the strongest player, and the amount of metal per second is not the only or main criterion. During the game, I had combat encounters with all the players, and regardless of the quality of the damage dealt and the losses they suffered, it was a lot of APM, and did not give me the opportunity to develop according to the right scenario. In fact, I think that Anir developed slowly this time, and basically the blue star very quickly gains an undeniable advantage, gaining complete control of the top rigth corner of the map EU. It is very easy to defend and can be quickly developed to 150-200 incam per second, which is what you encountered when you mentioned that you would like to attack Anir, but this is almost impossible without a full-fledged head-on war. So Anir only fought Press and just ignored a couple of your air raids. I constantly had multifaceted pressure from the ground (JOE was completely focused on me), air and water, with rocket attacks (that's you). The Mason also occupied my mexes in the lower corner of the map, and for some reason ignored the mexes closest to him that you freely took. I can defend against all these threats and I know how, but they require different protections, and tonn through the metal on them, and each protection is effective only against a specific threat and is vulnerable to a different type of attack. So three players were somehow focused on me while Anir (a player of equal rank to me) was left alone to digest the most convenient part of the map, and allowed to gain critical mass.
Now to what I consider a dirty game:
1. Coordinated attack - when two players attack one in parallel by combining an attack. It does not matter if they explicitly agreed on this or not. When you monitored my fight with DJO and attacked at the very moment when he went to push. (I still find it normal for yellow and below players to team up against blue stars, and sometimes even i directly suggest that players team up against me. However, when a player of about the same rank (who was once even purple)) synchronizes his attacks using the pressure of a weaker player, it looks dirty. In addition, DJO invested a maximum in the army and a minimum in the economy, which almost completely deprived him of the chances of winning the game, but significantly increased the chances of a successful fight or
even defeat me.
2. More importantly (and more dirty), i see at the moment when Anir had already gained an undeniable advantage and almost destroyed you, you continued to attack me, reducing the already small chances for an interesting fight. With these actions, you simply guaranteed the victory of Anir without additional efforts, breaking the balance of the game.
All actions after your attack with the army on Anir (which did almost no significant damage, considering the reclaim), were directed to my strategic projects, and severely blocked my ability to fight back from Anir, taking APM, recovery metal, and time. That move with the hercules was really very successful, but it slowed down the appearance of my detriment on the battlefield a lot. The appearance of detriment without hercules is significantly less effective.
Also, the final attack with the destruction of the trinity was frankly dirty, playing along with Anir. I can understand this if I somehow set you up in the game (for example, an unexpected nuke in the base after the announcement of a truce or something like that.) However, I did not take any insidious actions against you, and my situation was much worse than that of Anir , respectively, the attack looked unreasonably dirty.
3. Actuall im also think attack without full war(or chance to take opponent territory) seems a bit dirty, but just a bit.
+1 / -0

5 months ago
I don't think anyone knowingly teamed against anyone.
Mudosaka crippled both Anir and Hedkeaf at some point, that should be fine.

Scylla and halberd attacks after losing army and eco was a bit annoying.
However, Mudosaka could only play kingmaker at that stage.

A rule to resign in such cases could exist, but it would be subjective at best.
Next step is to have an arbiter of FFA code of conduct? :P
+0 / -0
5 months ago
Might be also a map problem? (I mean, look at the continent history, things did not go great in real life either).

My point being, different configuration of start positions will give an advantage to one player or another. Even on symmetrical map being squeezed between the best players is very different to being squeezed between the worst players. Maybe for FFA the start position could try to improve that a bit as well.
+3 / -0
I mean, look at the continent history, things did not go great in real life either

Well things went super well in that sense that there were always multiple centers of power, unable to defeat each other, especially after the Congress of Westphalia (most other regions always became united under some great power - China, Ottomans, ...). There were two safeguards of that balance, however, one being German states being split and not united (that way, they were unable to defeat France, but if France attacked them, they would unite together, and defend), and the second one was British Splendid Isolation policy. WWI was the consequence of Germany being united - first safeguard was gone and Britain felt threatened by growing German navy and ended Splendid isolation by allying with France. Also, after WWI after Austria-Hungary was gone, the system was even more rigid than before, due to a one less power center, but WWII was inevitable due to the way Allies concluded WWI, which led to the rise of Hitler.

Most other regions besides Europe are like Anir winning in 5 minutes
+0 / -0

5 months ago
Please adjust the course of this conversation away from real-life history/politics.


Consider the following as having been said with my moderator hat firmly removed. Just some comments from somebody who has watched most of this game at 10x speed.

When you monitored my fight with DJO and attacked at the very moment when he went to push.

This sounds like good play to me.

Anir had already gained an undeniable advantage and almost destroyed you, you continued to attack me, reducing the already small chances for an interesting fight

This I think was in poor taste.

attack without full war(or chance to take opponent territory)

I think as long as you have some actual purpose for how this affects the balance of the FFA in a way that is useful to you, this is fine.
+2 / -0