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Title: [A] Teams All Welcome
Host: Nobody
Game version: Zero-K v1.11.11.2
Engine version: 105.1.1-1821-gaca6f20
Started: 13 days ago
Duration: 65 minutes
Players: 23
Bots: False
Mission: False
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12 days ago
air shuts down all mobility until whole wide map is copvered in shields. super and nukes win.

There were some Odins early, but a lot of the midgame was Magpie. The Magpies weren't necessarily effective though. Here are some big attacks.
  • 20:40 5k of Magpie attacks a Cyclops in a retreating army and needs help from ground to kill it.
  • 21:00 8.5k of Magpie goes around the back and takes out some mexes and a gunship factory, then all dies to Raptor.
  • 22:10 6.6k of Magpie try to clear out some Glaives supported by 3.2k of Gremlin, but retreat after taking some losses
  • 24:00 5k in Magpie attack and just barely kill a damaged Lucifer.

Meanwhile the bottom of the map has mostly been Likho, with a Krow. The side without air is using shields and chainsaw to push into the Likho side. It feels more like the game is being dominated by nuke, but I haven't even seen any air take out antinukes.

Continuing on.
  • 28:00 9k in Magpie kill a handful mexes and pylons on a quite side of the map.
  • 31:20 12.7k in Magpie... try to sneak around the bottom of the map, get intercepted by Raptor, fire at the Raptor, then return to rearm over enemy AA and all die.
  • 37:00 8k in Magpie take out a few mexes and turrets.

People mostly stop making Magpie after this point, opting instead for nukes, big ground pushes, and Zenith around 45:00. 7k of Magpie tries to bomb a Zenith around 50:00, and fails.

I'll have to rewatch the first 20 minutes to give better comments on whether mobility was shut down. Magpies were a part, but I don't think they were the only part. AA seemed effective against them too. And I have questions about how much an early Glaive sweep can do on a map this big in any case.
+2 / -0

12 days ago
DErankkatastrophe loses four Glaives around 2:30, the remaining four retreat to three Pickets and the commander starts making a Chainsaw. I guess I just don't think eight Glaives was doing much into three Blitz and two commanders.

At 6:40 seven Magpies kill seven Glaives being sent on a flank to kill Impalers. I tried godmoding to remove the Magpies, and the Glaives died to the Knights nearby, although they did kill one.

The Magpies weren't bad, but in the first 7 minutes they only manage the following.
  • Kill 11 Glaives
  • Put a Recon commander on half health.
  • Kill 2 Pickets and 3 Bolas on a different front.
This cost about 2500 in planes and repair pads. A big part of Magpie, as with any air, is that they encourage AA. Apart from that though, I'm not sure that they're doing much more by this point than an extra land factory on the front. The AA factor is big though, although I think large games, especially on a large map like this, will want to have air players anyway.

Around 7:40, 8 Magpies try to finish off a morphed Recon commander, but fall short by 180 damage.

Then at 8:40 14 Glaives are sent north and kill a bunch of mex and a Recluse. Magpies kill 8, but the survivors go on to kill more mex, and probably could have killed even more than they did, as well as a constructor. I count 9 mex killed in total. The raid was still effective.

Then at 10:00 Magpies kill a Lance, fulfilling their job. Glaives are still able to rush in and kill Phantoms and Impaler in chaotic battles.

I get the feelsbad factor of Glaive vs. Magpie. An army of X Glaives just evaporates against X Magpies. There's not much to do, except make it bad at hitting Glaive, but that will be a bit annoying to judge from the air player, and Raven already has that role. I'm not even sure that its efficient, in that I don't think Magpie defense would be sufficient to protect naked expansion. And at 200 energy per shot, is shooting Glaive even efficient?

It is definitely something to watch though.
+0 / -0
Enemy team did not build enough odins to hit frontline zenith....
As for mobility?
Our North was for a large part of the game open (props to Bob for holding alone) to large raids. We had entire enemy army's just strolling in along with mass magpies. Sure our air played some small part in trying to stop the raids, but that was due to lack of aa with east raiding forces. Air did not shut down mobility in the north here, it was east porcing up first followed by bob (and east ended most frontline air support with artremis anyways which is the true mobility shutdown).
+0 / -0
Magpie is a pile of garbage compared to both raven and phoenix vs glaives, as well as most other low-cost units. Vs lone medium-hp raiders like ducks or pyro it is okay. It is semi-ok vs kodachi and scorchers (especially if they are already low HP) and lone mexes. Problem is, vs ALL OF THESE they do not make cost (in terms of energy traded vs damage dealt) and spend 90% of their life rearming/repairing, killing your eco. I am not sure why there is even a question of magpie being OP.
+0 / -0
Thanks for watching.
Air doesnt need magpie to stop raiders tho. Swifts work as well, they just take longer. The frustrating thing is that you cant even shoot back at magpie. I dont think you can retreat in time either. Yes, bombing glaives is not efficient, but you can also bomb most other light units without retailation. So, ronin is out of the equation as well, not sure about knight and reaver, but pretty certain. So what can I do? I have to wait until I have sufficient aa, but at that time, the front might already be well defended. So , going around defenses or not letting them be build in the first place are out. I can make artillery or silo. Thats what I mean with "shut down mobility". Maybe I can get into their territory, but is this a good idea given all the reclaim is on their side. You would need to be very convinced that you can deal a lot of damage and then retreat, maybe even with eating the reclaim yourself for this to be an attractive option.

Anyway, I find just remarkable that this is a pretty wide and open map, yet it still devolves into porc, shields, nukes etc. As you see here, it is totally possible in these games to get to a point where there is a shielded porc-line across the whole map.
+4 / -0
Sure our air played some small part in trying to stop the raids, but that was due to lack of aa with east raiding forces.

Yes because we all have unlimited ressources... AA is just not cost effective in context. If you don`t bring enough, they will still get killed in enemy-territory (see likho killing gremlins, then getting killed by the other gremlins), reclaim goes to defender, attacker ends up with diminished forces, in the worst case without an army at all. So, you need to be sure to have so much aa that air doesnt even want to attack you in the first place. But at the same time, you still need regular forces to fight on ground. Building that takes so much time that the front is porced up already usually, yes.

I am not sure why there is even a question of magpie being OP.

There is not. It is a question of gameplay. It`s about this:
I get the feelsbad factor of Glaive vs. Magpie. An army of X Glaives just evaporates against X Magpies.
which is understandable since every magpie costs a lot more than a glaive, but there is absolutely no interaction. You cannot dodge, pull back or even shootback. There is not even a point in spreading like you do when a licho appears. The air-player just generates attrition without losing even a single point of health.

Last edit: Listen, it is not that I complain about air being the prime raider-counter in clusterfucks. Swifts do what these magpies did for as long as I play. What I do think tho is that air doesn`t need to be even stronger by having something like odin. But thats too late now anyway, because odin is in game and is probably not doing the surfboard.
+1 / -0

11 days ago
I also think Magpie could do with a rethink. It seems its purpose is to - at a high cost because of reload - allow rapid uncounterable response to any raider that somehow manages to slip the net. This doesn't sound like a good interaction.
+0 / -0

9 days ago
This interaction is very similar to Harpy. Harpy vs most ground units is 100% unfun for ground units. It also 1-shots glaives, and several of them can take down just about any unit with minimal losses. And it has a 5s reload which is free.

I would suggest giving magpie a more dedicated "sniper" role, emphasizing long reload and ability to strike mobile targets further. Specifically, giving it the same kind of missiles as those used by harpy could be interesting, as it would make it far more interesting as a flex support unit (rather than direct DD, as it is sorta terrible in that role). For example, instead of trying to directly kill single units, a pack of magpies could instead slow all of them down making the job easier for ground forces (or ravens). It would also make it far more useful in a general AA mix to intercept Odin, renevants and other fat nonsense that may otherwise require a fair bit of firepower to kill in a timely manner.

To compensate for the extra slow damage buff, making magpie about as slow as Raven (and, possibly, increasing reload cost) could be considered.

One more way to "separate" magpie from other bombers could be to make it fly REALLY LOW. Like, literally gunship low, maybe lower. This would further emphasize the "tactical" aspect of it, allowing it to hide behind hills/shields/cloakfields far better than ravens or likhos can, but also dying to stuff like mace and ripper.
+0 / -0
I don't know about the low flying part.

Flying too low takes you into ground to ground weapon range. You can see that when ravens try to bomb a spired desolator and get killed by it instead.

Flying low is a significant nerf.
+0 / -0

6 days ago
Well ravens get annihilated by desolators even without the spires.
+1 / -0
6 days ago
And now odins also struggle....
+0 / -0