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Title: [A] Teams All Welcome
Host: Nobody
Game version: Zero-K 1.8.4.2
Engine version: 104.0.1-1435-g79d77ca
Started: 2 months ago
Duration: 20 minutes
Players: 12
Bots: False
Mission: False
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Manual download

Team 1
Chance of victory: 40.2%

USranksomekid
CArankscottviger
USranknop
CArankTarkin
USrankKeo
USrankSentinelComanche
Team 2
Chance of victory: 59.8%

USrankShaman
USrankbrianfreeman
USrankrecneps
FIrankterve886
TWrankCatMaster
DErankeasyphil

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2 months ago
Does this count AUrankAdminGoogleFrog?
+0 / -0


2 months ago
Are you going to give any context?
+0 / -0
Me and Terve were the only ones going sea against multiple ship, amph, and hover players. Early on we had some losses however, there are some examples of scallops taking out equal metals worth of Sirens with lobsters. Overall it felt like we did not deserve to win this match, nor do I think we should have since we had 4 people go land factories (myself included). I quickly told two people to go sea, one took a little while to build a ship fac in south.

Scallops later on push the west team out of sea completely after west had sea dominance since the early game.

Lobstered scallops feel too good to us to pass up on that for another factory. This game shows what terve and I have come to figure sea out in a nutshell: lobster scallop and shield. There are probably other factors involved here and I did not watch the replay admittedly to see what was going on on the other side, but it felt like we robbed west of an easy win. To me, scallops feel way too good at the moment when paired with cheaper lobster in team games. TWrankgounson8989 was also doing it at some point during the evening's folsom dam battle.
+0 / -0
I forget the conversation but assume that the topic was Scallop in sea.

You should rewatch the replay because I can't say that I agree with your summary of the game. It could be easy to miss all the sea combat at the bottom of the map from where you were. This is what I see.

You and FIrankterve886 fight one low-rank amph player and almost one ship player. USrankrecneps makes Ships fairly quickly for the average speed of the game and fights against three players (of varying effectiveness) for a lot of the game. One is the hovercraft player (that sometimes pokes north), one is a gunships player, and one is a Tank plopper that decided to porc and island.
  • You were fighting sea with even resources and a rank advantage. Your opponents frequently suicided lone units into larger Scallop armies.
  • Your land plops (two, not four, since you never make any land units with the shieldbot factory) switched to sea factories fairly quickly relative to the expansion skill of the rest of the game.
  • The ship opponent helped other fronts, with an early Envoy sent south to kill one of your 'land' allies Ship factories, and a Hunter raid later to kill other 'land' allies forces.
  • Your army seemed to be too slow to stop south from falling.
  • Both sides had about equal plane support and about equal new player impact.

I would say the most effective player was USrankrecneps for holding off multiple players South from fairly early on. There are some good Scallop matchup examples in the game but if you just look at it in terms of economy and rank investment I don't think you and FIrankterve886 significantly overperformed due to them.

I'm not saying that Lobster Scallop is not too good, and shields have been problematic for underwater combat for a long time. Here is why I am not doing anything about it at the moment:
  • Amph is very easy to accidentally delete since it is slow and has no solid artillery.
  • It seems reasonable for slower factories to eventually win locally.
  • Sea is hard as there are new interactions to learn. I can easily imagine something feeling a bit too powerful when used against people who are inexperienced with sea.
  • I have not seen it be clearly way too good.
  • The problem may be best resolved by tweaking underwater shield interactions, and I don't want to pay that price yet.
  • Nerfing Amph here seems like the kind of change that would remove interesting diversity from the game. Usually you'd want to nerf to stop something from suppressing the diversity in other areas.
+1 / -0

59 days ago
I watched game until USrankrecneps resign.
@_Shaman and terve886 easy dominate enemy because they both shared incoming and unit composition while USranksomekid and CArankscottviger didnt cooperate. One spamming urchins and other trying do some ships. Later they just massed big scallop ball and cooked all south. Also they got reclaim and even more metalz.
USranknop was mostly useless at that stage with his hovers driving arond scalpels and lonely clymore. He could just spam claymores and help south.
As meat shields USrankrecneps did good job but gs player lacked some skills with gs because he could remove USrankrecneps very fast from game.
But this game shows annoying things anyway.
1. Lobster throw can't be countered or countermesaures from players was costly and cost too much. Best counter vs throwing balls seems like limpet or maybe claymore.
2. Episode when they throw 4 scallops vs two sirens and sirens was oblidaraded was just silly because they didn't lost any scallop while enemy lost two sirens and dat was 1,2k metalz.
3. Big shields ball with massed scallops can't be countered almost by anything.

I don't tell this just from this game only. I'm always playing ships in sea games and have seen this problems all time.
I don't like lobster unit because its very hard to counter. This unit radicaly changes all sea battle. Ye its funny to troll with it but when enemy starts seriously use it then its not more funny because caountering in air/water spreaded scallop riots who is shooting all time is starting become big problem.
Scallop monospam with shields i think defeat all other unit spam in metal values and even doesnt require large skill to use. But counter that simple spam you need good unit combo and good managment.
I'm not about for nurfing scallop. I just tell what i have seen in team games and scallop easy dominates in all skill levels there.
But siren is silly. It cant trully counter scallops. Its better countering papper ships or papper raiders. However i understand that siren is hard to balance because i played in times when it wasn't nerfed.
+0 / -0
USranknop
58 days ago
What can Hovers do against Lobster Scallop?
+0 / -0

58 days ago
And now i noticed another annyoing trend from lobster players - with one lobster he throw units at me and with second lobster he throw his units and some of my units back to his position.
+0 / -0


58 days ago
I do not know what hovers should do against Lobster Scallop. It likely depends on the terrain. I don't think we've determined that they can't do anything.
+0 / -0