Fail AA gunship - even Banshees are stronger against gunships overall

I have tested it multiple times, but AA gunships are weak.

___
Disadvantages or Rapier:

They fail to well microed Vamps and will lose between 0.05 and 0.15 gunships each attack run.

If you use fighters on patrol, Avengers are more efficient.
High speed and low HPs will cause multiple missles to follow one Avenger and do too much overkill.
The own missles of 2 Avengers would need 50 seconds to kill 1 gunship The laser reduces it to 33 seconds and makes it very easy to take down one gunship after another. 2 Avengers have 2/3 of Vamps HPs, but if 3 gunships shoot one Avenger or 4 gunships one Vamp, they make about 2/3 effective damage to them only.

As long as you don't move them, even Licho will kill some of them each attack run - the more you have, the more will die. And you have to cluster them a bit or Licho will retreat savely.

AA gunships fail to banshees at equal metal, but you have to deactivate strafe for banshees.

AA gunships fail to equal metal in BlackDawns - even if not microed.
Microed, BlackDawns have more reload time for the dps, are faster, and very effective in attacking the cluster of following Rapiers.

I don't tested Brawlers, but they might be even more efficient due to target movement prediction, much higher dps per cost and the square law. Brawlers could even be used to attack a cluster from the size of a Krow.

___
Advantages of Banshee.

Banshees can kill everything in the gunship lab, but no Heavy Transpoters.
If you have only 2 Banshees for that transporter, it will outrange the banshees.
If you have more Banshees and more Transporter, the transporter can shot both weapons all the time and make 3 times dps.

They are faster than Rapiers.

_____
Once I have seen that AA gunships have both - more DPS / cost and more HP/cost.

They got nerfed in both - HP and DPS. Now they suck only your metal AND are the only AA unit in this factory.

They need more range, more speed, more dps, but only against other gunships or air.

I would give them the speed of BD and Brawler, buff the range to fit Vamp and increase the DPs to the same level of Banshee.
To increase the DPs against Avenger and range against Vamp we could use a ligh AA gun like the one Jetro has, the rocket can get a higher reload time and more damage to fit into the anti-bomber role

But because they should not be too OP, let them suffer eigther HP or missle range.

No air unit should be able to attack them with impunity, one of the 2 fighters should beat them at 0.75 to 0.9 times cost, because AA gunships got an advantage against bombers (missle).

Banshee is faster, banshee costs less, it has much higher dps.
Rapier may make too much overkill.

Banshees are better against gunships - especially against <900 HP swarms.

They should get more range and less dps.
They should additionally get an AA weapon.

If an enemy can make pure Avengers and attack ground and Rapiers with impunity there is something wrong.

300 metal Avengers can do about (7.2 damage /0.2 reload) /2(attack move) *2(half cost) = 36 dps against ground units + 70 dps against air units (missile) while Rapiers only have 37 dps at all.

If an air player makes only Avengers, he can deal same dps against ground and three times dps against Rapiers.
Because they have only 260 HP and are very fast, multiple Rapiers tends to shot about 4 missles at 1 Avenger - that are about the same effective HP/metal than Rapiers have.

Avengers can fly at the edge of the range of Rapiers and fire their missles, while only a few rapiers can fire their own missile at Avengers. Avengers are faster - they decide where the battle is and how much Rapiers get involved (impunity).

If you don't belive me, let's start a battle.
You get gunships and I take planes.
You can make 4 times the ammount of rapiers than I will make Avengers - double cost and will likely lose.
They aren't AA.


_ What happened __

I never saw any sign of one player, until he went around the enemy( he had a lot of AA + figter patrols ) in front of me and killed me with a more than 100 Rapiers.

Rapiers - even if you have 100 of them - should not be able to eat their path through 5 Chainsaws, 30 Razzors and only lose 20 Rapiers.

I had AA worth 45 Rapiers left and the AA was static ( should be much stronger by design ).

They have done eigther too much damage to the Razzors or surivived them for too long.

I got in panic because of the radar blips, and sent 3 shadows, 2 Lichos, and about 10 Vams against right after they entered the range of the middle line of razzors.

The Lichos killed a few ( maybe 10 ), Shadows killed 2 others 1 missed, Vamps killed 2 and got killed by themselfes.

Even with my killed units ( took some damage which otherwise would have dealt to my Razzros and chainsaws ) and 14 AA gunships less, they have easily killed about 2 times their cost.

> "Banshee vs Rapier"
> Banshee wins by design because Rapier is suppose to be better vs planes.

Banshees don't win by design - they win if you disable AirStrafe for at least one of the teams.
If Banshees and AA-Gunships both use air strafe, Banshees won't hit them often.


> I'm still confused, explain to me how the following 3 sentences do not contradict each other.


> "They need more range, more speed, more dps, but only against other gunships or air."

It shouldn't overkill Avengers so much - that would need less burst damage.
But with less burst damage it would suck against bombers, we need another second weapon with less burst damage to do that job.
AA-weapon

> "They should get more range and less dps. They should additionally get an AA weapon."

less dps only against ground units - AA weapon to have same dps against air

> "They have done eigther too much damage to the Razzors or surivived them for too long."

Too much burst damage or health - nerf one of both stats would solve the problem - I prefer nefing the health.


> Here is the things I would consider if I thought there was enough of a problem:
> * Increase range
> * Increase burst damage
> * Decrease speed
> * Decrease health

They only need more range against fighters - AA weapon ( maybe from jetro )
If we decrease speed AND HP it will be UP - Imagine a AA-Gunship that can not catch Krow, can not retreat from AA and dies instantly in front of fast AA-units.

That is what I would suggest Google:
* Increase range
* * With an additional long ranged and weak AA weapon?
* * * This weapon is not supposed to do all the job alone, but to break impunity
* Increase burst damage
* * This would be nice, but we may need to buff only the reload - not the damage if we really add a second AA-only-weapon.
* Decrease speed
* * AA needs to be fast - gunships are vulnerable to AA and need some difference or situational advantage compared to ground-AA.
* * If we increase the speed they would be more different.
* Decrease health
* * AA-Gunships have more HP than Vamps - the buffs above would make them OP, and this need a opposite nerf here.

We should clone the rapier and add 2 test units - and try which of our ideas fits better.

Froggie, I think your points..

* Increase range
* Increase burst damage
* Decrease speed
* Decrease health

would turn it into a Black Dawn with a tracking missile. Overall moar hit'n'run. Range would make them better vs statics and weaker vs mobile AA. That's BD, really! :D

Are they op then or exactly in the middle? Sometimes i get the feeling they are a bit too good in aa.

I only said that is what I'd do if they had a problem. They don't seem to though.

Is modstats somewhere available to public? Or it is some script which you run localy?

If Rapiers would be better than Vamps and Avengers how an air player be able to compete with a gunship player? Stationary AA can be circumvented so that would not be an option for the air player.

Rapiers is a excellent gunship when the enemy got fighters and your allies got scarce AA. In other cases i use banshees.

Having lots of Rapiers means that the air player has to make alot of fighters in order to prevent your rapiers from doing damage. This means that the airplayer can't make bombers. Just by having the rapiers in a threathening position means you can nullify 1 airplayer for cost.
Rapiers can also intercept(not catch) raiders in your expansions.

It takes quite some time for Avengers and Vamps to kill your rapiers when they the fighters are in small numbers. This means that even though the enemy could potentially kill your rapiers you can still use them near friendly AA.

How to micro against fighters. When you see enemy fighters incoming move away from enemy units that might divert your rapier shots. If the enemy has enough fighters to kill your rapiers try to work your way towards friendly AA. Keep your rapiers spread out and try to keep the most damaged rapiers behind your healthy ones. Before the enemy comes in range of your rapiers go against him. This makes you take alot less damage especially if you face vamps as their attack runs will be alot shorter.
As he is about to pass your rapiers you press Fight to make your rapiers shoot more reliebly at the nearest vamps. This also makes you do less overkill if your rapiers are spread out.
Just as the vamps are about to pass your gunships you reverse direction to chase the vamps or head for the friendly AA again. This will give you more time before the enemy can make an attack run again and increases the chances of your rapiers reloading and getting another shoot off.
If the enemy is microing his fighters you can just head for friendly AA since the enemy vamps will not be able to do much damgage in each run. If the vamps come to close just give a fight command and you'll get some shots off and then resume heading to base.

If the enemy got less fighters you can pretty much use the same tactics to kill them off with minimal losses.

NeonStorm

1.
Godde wrote > How to micro against fighters. When you see enemy fighters incoming move away from enemy units that might divert your rapier shots.
Neon wrote* The only problem is, that fighters have more range at all.
1.a
It is important that you do not waste shots at ground targets if you want to stand a fighting chance against fighters with Rapiers.
If the airplayer keep outranging your rapiers they will do much less damage than if the fighters are let to do full attack runs which means you have more time to retreat.

2.
Godde wrote> If the enemy has enough fighters to kill your rapiers try to work your way towards friendly AA.
Neon wrote* The only problem is that fighters are a lot faster, and that you can't have adv. radars everywhere.
2.a
I didn't say you could completly escape unharmed if the fighters come to get you. I just said that you should retreat towards friendly AA implying that you should be ready to fight back if the fighters comes to close. Radar surely helps at detecting incoming enemy fighters but if the enemy has gone air at the start you should already expect enemy fighters. Rapiers are a good way to force out thoose fighters anyway.

3.
Godde wrote > Keep your rapiers spread out and try to keep the most damaged rapiers behind your healthy ones.
Neon wrote* That is a great disadvantage for newbes.
3.a
You already implied that the fighter player keep outranging the Rapiers which requires alot of micro.
3.1
Neon wrote* They fail to well microed Vamps and will lose between 0.05 and 0.15 gunships each attack run.
3.1.a
Then the Rapier player can surely afford some micro aswell or if you want to make into a newb vs newb fight then the fighters shouldn't keep outranging the Rapiers all the time.

4.
Godde wrote> Before the enemy comes in range of your rapiers go against him. This makes you take alot less damage especially if you face vamps as their attack runs will be alot shorter.
Neon wrote* This works only if the enemy don't have 2 groups. If it is so, the Rapiers have to go in 2 different directions, allowing ( especially ) Vamps and Avengers to attack continously.
4.a
See 3.a. If the fighter player can make 2 groups then so can the Rapier player. Attacking continously is not that much of an advantage as the rapiers got a bigger chance to reload and fire again. If the fighters keep outranging the rapiers they do less damage. See 1.


5.
Godde wrote> It takes quite some time for Avengers and Vamps to kill your rapiers when they the fighters are in small numbers. > This means that even though the enemy could potentially kill your rapiers you can still use them near friendly AA.
5.1
Neon wrote* And stay behind short ranged AA forever?
5.1.a
The rapiers can still intercept raiders, help ground troops and deter bombers and enemy gunships combined with friendly AA.
5.2
Neon wrote* If you try a breakout, the enemy fighter player will fight at max. distance to shot one Rapier after another.
5.2.a
The fighter player has nearly no ability to focus fire at enemy rapiers unless he targets a specific Rapier which makes keeping his fighters out of Rapier range, very hard. This on the other hand can be countered by micro from the Rapier player by putting health Rapiers infront of weak ones and by retreating low health Rapiers and repairing them.

5.3
Neon wrote* Once they are out of the AA, he will use Avenger spam from both flanks to distract your shots while he use his Vamps from both sides too after the Avengers catched some shots.
Avengers cost 150 and dies from 2 Rapier shoots while a 300 cost vamp needs 7 shoots to be killed. I don't see how Avengers are good cannon fodder against Rapiers compared to Vamps and since you have not stated how big this engagement is then it cannot be concluded that Avengers are better cannon fodder than Vamps because of overkill.
I guess you are trying to state that more overkill is done when using avengers but this depends on alot of factors. Like the number of Rapiers, their spread, if their reload is synchronized and so on. A vamp can survive going through 6 rapiers while an avenger would die from going through 2 for example.

5.4
Neon wrote* Costum formations allows to spread fighters out and don't take AOE.
5.4.a
I don't think AOE factors are of big importance in Rapier vs fighter battles. If AOE are important then you also have to weigh in that against the effectiveness of micro and damage maximisation when microing bunched up fighters.

6
Neon wrote: Fighters can be used against Bombers from another player AND to kill gunships - they can be everywhere much likely due to a higher velocity.
6.a
Fighters cannot be everywhere all the time. If the fighters are occupied in a standoff or fight against rapiers they may not be in position to intercept bombers that bomb the front for example. If they withdraw, they leave open a space for the rapiers to usilize before the fighters can return in full strength.

7.
Neon wrote: If you play with 2 air players ( fighter and bomber ) and the enemy with air+gunships, the gunships will lose.
7.a
Let me give you a counter example. If the gunship player makes rapiers and get fighter support he will not lose. He will more likely be able to push the airplayers and kill their expansions while avoiding their stationary AA.

8.
Neon wrote: If you make AA, the enemy can make AA too - razzors, stardusts.
8.a
Obviously yes.
I still think that rapiers are better than fighters in that situation since they can kill land units better than fighters can(especially Vamps :P).