Blastwing rush

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SnuggleBass 9 years ago People are complaining about it, and while it is counterable in a sense, it also falls well into the category of blind RPS. I've tried as much as I could to cut corners, even going factories that specifically have cheap AA to produce once blastwings are scouted. Even then, there's a good chance you will lose if they hit your factory with one blastwing. The only reliable way to not die is to build a defender before mex on small map, and build a second one further away once you see them coming. On larger maps it might be possible to squeeze one mex in before planting a defender. You cannot counter it without blind pre-empting them, and I believe that is against design goals. I like them as a unit outside of this rush, and it would be a pity to see them changed too drastically. Thoughts? +4 / -0
ElTorero 9 years ago Sfireman has used that on me like 5 times, and it was always successful. A mechanic like this shouldn't exist, as it is just blind RPS as snuggle said... I already complained in battle threads but no one seemed to care +0 / -0
Anarchid 9 years ago (edited 9 years ago) Regardless of blind cheese success rate, i also really dislike how they chainsplode. If they worked by spawning a tossed bomb on death (including attack-death), they would be useful in more cases, i think, while possibly also being less unstoppable early on. The model even accomodates that very well! A less drastic option would be increasing their cost, damage, and landing speed. That would: 1) make them easier to stop early on because less targets per cost 2) much more usable as mines -> increased mid-late game reuse value. +5 / -0
Firepluk 9 years ago (edited 9 years ago) I like 2nd option can be interesting unit in mid game currently blastshits are totally OP and unbalanced +0 / -0
Aquanim 9 years ago The rush would be much less... whatever it is... if defenders reliably hit blastwings. +0 / -0
Pxtl 9 years ago Replace sudden boom with a fireball so they don't stack and you can repair through the attack. Also their chaining would be softer. +1 / -1
dahn 9 years ago imo blastwings arent op in normal zk. however they are powerful: 1 on tiny skirmish and alike 2 1v2 on usual small maps lke icyrun 3 vs hermit/scallop/cluster-raider spam 4 as: scouts, suprise minefield, harrasing tactics, etc 1st case and 2nd are abnormal cases of zk playing. fullstop. 3rd proves how monospam is stupid and easy answerable. 4th is the normal proper playing: >> I like them as a unit outside of this rush to be blastshitted is as dissapointing as to be skuttled or shocked by infi, and ppl complains about it beign op mostly coz of unawareness to be blasthitted on early stage of game. this is proved. recently i was blasthitting a player (who has experience) that i havent seen before. and succeded coz that player havent seen me before and after 1st game min hadnt any defender near self. many another examples exist. and finally u should admit that blastshit rush is risky cheese, requires big clickfest, and has no rescue scenario in case of fail in small teams +1 / -0
Qrow 9 years ago I just tried bw rush in 2v2 game, it failed epicly +0 / -0
AutoWar 9 years ago (edited 9 years ago) blastwing rush is blind luck RPS. Why aren't you all rushing radar in every game? +2 / -0
Sprung 9 years ago You mean this? It failed epicly because your execution was sub-optimal (like sending them in chainsploding groups). Meanwhile in the same game your own comm got killed by enemy Blastwings. +3 / -0
SnuggleBass 9 years ago AutoWar Because opportunity cost, in this case, you are missing out on any chance to defend yourself against the blastwing cheese you now see coming. Radar is not AA, and therefore it is countered by blastwing cheese. dahn Blastwing cheese is always powerful. It's not terrain dependent, and the speed of blastwings basically negates rush distance. Even on CCR it will kill someone that doesn't rush a defender. The only problem being discussed here is blastwings as an early cheese. If you do well with them after the 1-2 minute mark, you deserve the win. The comparison to infi and skuttle don't hold because these other things take large investments, require energy to be cloaked, and require a second factory to be relevant as a cheese. Basically there's counterplay that isn't blind. +2 / -0
Senaven 9 years ago In teams balstwing rush mostly fails. 1 vs 1 it is powerful cheeses. If this cheese fails then there is powerful loose. Spreading defenders work. +1 / -0
Flipstip 9 years ago (edited 9 years ago) The main strength of the blastwing rush right now is that it is unexpected and people don't have a lot of experience in countering them (including myself). I do expect though thatonce people are more prepared for it, the succes rate of blastwing rushes will decline and their popularity will soon follow. There are probably some tricks to get up some aa under imperfect blastwing pressure, such as spoofing with nanoframes or getting up aa in multiple places: defender with com and aa in fac, blastwings can only hit one of both probably. Coms different than support com also might have an advantage: battle com survives longer, jump com jumps... Once the aa is up it should be trivial to come out with an advantage. Also I think this blind rps is part of a more general soft blind rps between defensive, offensive and economic starts. +1 / -0
[XIV]Floris 9 years ago Which change to Blast wing did I miss? +0 / -0
SnuggleBass 9 years ago I don't think there was any change, people just realised that if you set your rally point to opposing start box and assist fac with com, then click repeat queue on blastwing, you will get a com kill at around the 20-25 second mark (it starts hitting at around 10-15 seconds). The ease of use turns any 1300 into a viable threat against the top player of opposing team. The AoE and debris damage of the blastwing makes it very difficult to get AA up once they've started hitting you, and they'll typically kill a commander in 4-5 hits (200-250 metal). So you either pre-built AA at the very start of the game, or you've got a very good chance of losing your com and/or factory. +1 / -0
Flipstip 9 years ago Some stupid blastwing rushes have been performed: B380339 2 on TinySkirmishRedux1.1 succes vs comrush B380341 2 on Desert_Plateaus succes B380346 2 on Zed 1.7 loss: forgot repeat queue, was too timid to properly follow up with comdrop B380347 2 on Hide_and_Seek_v03 succes B380354 2 on SiberianDivide 1.0 metagamed Sprung, did not go for blastwings, he went for mass AA and lag B380405 2 on Obsidian_1.3 blastwing rush beats scorcher rush barely It is easy to pull of, if you don't forget repeat queue, send all bw's to enemy com and prevent a defender to go up. The main reasons it is so strong are: 1) lots of damage can be dealt really early 2) only good counter is defender or AA (they can get in and explode before they get killed) possible nerfs could be: damage, speed, weight/cost and hp The question is: what should they still be able to do? their damage is already quite low: they dont make cost vs mexes (I think, maybe they do if you holdfire them and land them next to a mex) I think they should be able to: make cost vs raiders and skirmishers as mines or when flying into advancing packs, but retreating raiders should be able to skirm them. I think a speed or health nerf would be best, this would allow more units to hit and kill them, speed nerf would also make a bw rush less viable on middle sized maps, and give opponents time to see them on radar + make defenders. +1 / -0
Sprung 9 years ago (edited 9 years ago) A possible counter to defender would be to send 1 gnat first, it costs less than 2 blastwings but tanks a whole defender salvo (and survives, so godde level tryhards could maybe even reuse them). +3 / -0
maackey 9 years ago When I made the model I originally intended them to act like the current puppies. (this was before puppies were a thing) They would fly close, pop their wings and let fly the missile at the target. There even was a blastwing2 unitscript that implemented it, but I didn't push very hard to have the unit changed. I wholeheartedly agree with Anarchid that the cost could be bumped up to compensate for a more powerful general attack. +2 / -0
SnuggleBass 9 years ago They kill a mex one hit if flying fast enough and the hit is direct enough. It's also pretty common to get collatoral damage on mexes/windgens from "misses". +0 / -0
AutoWar 9 years ago (edited 9 years ago) maackey i think blastwing should be flying pseudo-puppy with current cloak behavior but no metal duplication and must land on ground to use puppy weapon. +0 / -0

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