Do you think that DDM is too cheap or not? It have 10 000 HP, bunker ability (no weapons but 40 000 hp), heavy plasma canon and heath ray for close combat. And it costs only 1200 metal/energy. It's difficult to kill it even with artillery units for its price. In close it can smash unit masses and even easy kill striders. Also player can terraform spire and place it on and get range boost.
+4 / -4
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Part of its cost is having 50 connected power. In order to get your first DDM you need the equivalent of 25 solars that is connected to where you want the DDM. That's not easy to achieve or maintain. DDM is super powerful once these conditions are met, and they're very common in big teams for this reason. They don't really impact on 1v1 or small teams that much. I think they could go up while still being very playable, 1500 is not too much. But I also don't really think it matters. The bulk of the cost is in maintaining the grid and all the supporting structures. The raw cost efficiency of the DDM looks absurd on paper, but when you factor in all the stuff around it you're spending a lot of metal on something that can't actually move against your opponents. If you're finding DDM stops you completely, you're probably failing to escalate.
+1 / -0
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I would chip in to say that the DDM does cause stalemates in team games like no-ones business. Technically you can counter them with artillery, but with 10,000 HP and bunkering that can take a long long looong time, during which the effects of cons and shields are usually in play also, not to mention sorties by the defenders. It is absurdly powerful for its cost. quote:
The bulk of the cost is in maintaining the grid and all the supporting structures. |
Not sure I agree with the concept of this being part of its cost - iirc it doesn't actually drain any energy, and eco infrastructure is used to increase metal output. The energy requirement prevents early game use and limits positioning, but also becomes almost irrelevant by the mid-game on the usual 10v10+ maps.
+4 / -1
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If there is a requirement for something to be built, then it weakens it. It may not be a straight-forward cost, but if you don't take it into consideration you're not evaluating it properly. Imagine DDM that didn't have this requirement? It would be retarded. The energy requirements are never irrelevant. It doesn't matter if DDM is 10khp with turtle ability if you run a glaive through the wind chain connecting it then storm it from front.
+1 / -0
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quote:
The energy requirements are never irrelevant. It doesn't matter if DDM is 10khp with turtle ability if you run a glaive through the wind chain connecting it then storm it from front. |
Depends on the map - a DDM in the centre area of Titan V2, the bridge of Folsom Dam etc is not going to be easily flanked in a teamgame. its in these places that porc kings build a terraformed DDM, basically requiring the team to win the game elsewhere or the application of artillery.
+2 / -0
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If you snipe the pylon with a scythe, skuttle, impaler, halberd, sharpshooter, cloaked anything,... you get the possibility to overwhelm the ddm with anything that outranges the heatray. (Any skirm) Does racketeer outrange ddm? Also, shield+domi might work :)
+0 / -0
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On some maps it's better than others, but the tools to kill it or structures supporting it are still there. It's very rare you can't snipe the pylon with impaler for example.
+1 / -0
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I suppose this title doesn't talk about a single ddm where you can go around and "snipe" some pylons, in many cases grid is overlapping and creating a new pylon is done very quick and your attacking army gets smashed by plasmacannon. Also you can close it, to refresh its state. If first ddm up it stops 100 % of attacking units because it can deal with nearly any unit type except artillery while you do not run artillery in enemy base. You can raid anni and behe but not chance for ddm. Maybe silo works or catapult, or mass impalers. But do not forget 1200 is way too cheap. I would go for something like 1800 - 2000 metal cost then it maybe fits its role. 1200 is in mid game nearly nothing.
+8 / -2
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Midgame in big teams? You've got 10-20 income, so it takes 1-2 minutes to get the metal for the DDM alone. I'd argue that as soon as a DDM is up in the middle, late game is starting. If you manage to place a DDM in a relevant space during the midgame, I think you deserve to basically control that area. Opponents still have lots of options, but most people tend to handle DDMs poorly by suiciding etc. You still have the option to just plop an anni outside it's range, which cost more but will leave you with an anni and them with nothing. Ultimatum will kill it one hit with a good chance of surviving to run away. Racketeer will disarm it from range. Catapult will take it down. Funnels will stack up and eventually kill it. Fleas can jink in and force friendly fire. Tacnuke can stun it out while you assault. There's really a lot of options. I feel that people are upset about it not because it's empirically OP, but because it counters the things they like to do and it looks bad on paper. I guess I think about it like funnels? Once you invest in the funnel (eco), you get super efficient drones (DDM). Nothing could be more efficient than free units, yet funnels are sort of not that big of a deal.
+0 / -0
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quote:
If you manage to place a DDM in a relevant space during the midgame, I think you deserve to basically control that area. |
I disagree with this, not just because its really easy to do but because it also removes all back and forth (read: fun) from the midgame on maps with a chokepoint. 1200m is very cheap - and its extremely cost effective. One terraformed DDM will easily make cost even outcosted by assaults 3:1. quote:
You still have the option to just plop an anni outside it's range, which cost more but will leave you with an anni and them with nothing. |
Countering heavy porc by building heavier porc doesn't promote dynamic games though. quote:
Ultimatum will kill it one hit with a good chance of surviving to run away. |
Terra mostly nullifies this, and its trivial to screen. If you muck it up your 2000m unit implodes and DDM makes cost 1.5x. quote:
Racketeer will disarm it from range. |
This is best counter imo as its affordable and not countered by repairing. quote:
Catapult will take it down. Funnels will stack up and eventually kill it. |
Spending 3x its cost on a means that removes it (slowly, if repaired) does not really count as a counter. quote:
Tacnuke can stun it out while you assault. |
imo this is the only reliable solution, and it requires a 2000m investment. quote:
I feel that people are upset about it not because it's empirically OP, but because it counters the things they like to do and it looks bad on paper. |
I dislike it because it prolongs games and nullifies army advantage on some maps. Eg. Through good play team A might gain the middle of Titan V2 with 50% greater army value. Team B throw up a terra'd DDM - Team A now need to make an investment of time and cost specifically to remove it because it would annihilate their existing units, during which Team B easily recover.
+4 / -1
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I strongly dislike how hard it is to dislodge a DDM. I'm a big hater of any kind of bunker-up abilities on statics - IMO statics should get countered by artillery not be lolresistant to them. Currently, a repaired and closed DDM can be stupidly hard to dislodge with artillery (and sniping a pylon is not a big deal, it can be rebuilt in 2 seconds with those repairing cons). Zero-K is better off being a game of mobiles where statics play a smaller role and are only temporary helpers in stabilizing the game. The fact that DDM can be countered by plopping an Anni does not help the case - porcwar is not the best that ZK has to offer. Frankly I'd completely get rid of bunker-up mechanics on DDM and Anni and also remove their energy requirements and then see which kind of balance changes they would need. Powerful turrets are fine as long as there are clear counters, ubergeneralist artillery resistant towers (current DDM for example) on the other hand only serve to make the game stagnant and frustrating.
+7 / -1
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I like bunkering on Gauss because Gauss is not that devastating and seems to have less firepower than Stinger. DDM has the most firepower of all things, so yes it should not have bunkering IMO.
+5 / -0
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   Chesti wrote: quote:
But do not forget 1200 is way too cheap. I would go for something like 1800 - 2000 metal cost then it maybe fits its role. 1200 is in mid game nearly nothing. |
Funfact: It used to cost 1800m almost four years ago.To join the nerf-discussion: DDM's role is that of an overkill gate-keeper. It's counter is supposed to be "go around it, kill Pylons, depower DDM". Right now the going-around part can be a bit difficult because DDM creates a large area of practically "impassable terrain" for the enemy. Thus I suggest a range decrease of its cannon from 650 to around 500-550 [reason]. This would make the "impassable" terrain created by a DDM smaller and provide more space for "going around". It would be a nerf that focuses on DDM's weakness while keeping its strength.
+3 / -1
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Just to be clear, the only game-type DDM really affects in an arguably OP manner is big teams. Can we agree on this? Because it seems to me that a lot of people like different aspects of the game, many of whom like porcing up. They don't get success doing this in 1v1 or small teams, so why not let them have it in big? I don't think it removes back and forth; it's just the figurehead for the game-state at the time. I put up a ddm, you make artillery to snipe supporting structure, I make stealth or bombers to deal with artillery, you start screening and/or making aa. Somewhere down the line one of us gets the strider that renders DDM relatively obsolete. There's plenty of interaction going on here, it's just not midgame monospam. Furthermore, if you play maps with choke points porc is gonna happen. It doesn't matter if it's ddm or what. Skydust with shields behind it is pretty similar.
+1 / -0
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quote:
Just to be clear, the only game-type DDM really affects in an arguably OP manner is big teams. Can we agree on this? |
I'm fairly sure it's a metagame thing that people don't use DDM often in 1v1s. I'm also fairly sure DDM is very powerful in 1v1s. The main reason I rarely use it is lazyness - I'm not used to expanding my grid towards the front line so I just find it easier to plop a Stardust or two. A slight adjustment in playstyle would make plopping DDMs simple. That's one of the things I will work on when I get some time to play.
+1 / -0
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One easy and sensible DDM nerf would be making the heatray depend on 50 energy as well. This would make DDM swarmable by glaives etc. when depowered.
+7 / -1
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Oh yeah that too! And make it unable to on/off armored mode when unpowered.
+0 / -0
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To me it seems more like you can't afford to invest that much in defending one place, when you've got the entire middle to protect. If your opponents have a midgame army that you're trying to stop with DDM, at the point you could put it down they're able to smash through somewhere else very easily. I agree it's very powerful, but: - placing it before the map is split is bad. - placing it before your side is consolidated is bad. - placing it when your side is consolidated is bordering redundancy. I don't think it's just laziness. On most maps DDMs are bad most of the time.
+0 / -0
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quote:
Funfact: It used to cost 1800m almost four years ago. |
2500
+0 / -0
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2500 was before the grid. 1800 was after the grid requirement. The 2500m DDM was a completely different unit concept.
+0 / -0
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