I've been toying around with and trying to get a good feel of the amphib bot factory as I am not a very experienced player yet. According to the unit wiki, amphib bots should have some sonar range but most of them seem to be completely blind underwater. I've went through update logs and searched the forums but haven't found anything relevant. Are amphib bots working as intended with no sonar? If that is the case, I'd like to hear the logic behind this decision. If that is not the case, is this a common issue which has gone unnoticed (due to everyone using Vultures anyway) or something going wrong with just me?
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There's been a sea rework recently. The news post from 45 days ago has a Sonar section. quote:
Sonar
In short: all sea units and Urchin can see underwater units, underwater units are not detectable by radar and long-range sonar sources do not exist. Being underwater functions like radar jamming does on land, except you can't be seen by economy structures or land units.
In principle, being underwater is a lot like radar jamming, except that you are also invisible to non-Urchin structures, non-Vulture planes, and amphibious-pathing units from land factories. Here are the details:
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All units produced by the Ship, Amphibious and Hovercraft factories, and the ship Striders, have sonar equal to their sight range.
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Urchin has sonar equal to its sight range.
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Commanders have sonar equal to their sight range.
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Vulture has sonar range equal to its jamming range (700).
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Other units and structures do not have sonar. Notably this includes Gauss, Aspis, Eraser, Ultimatum and Detriment.
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Sonar Station has been removed.
We've investigated some preexisting sonar interactions and cleaned up some weirdness. One thing of note is that cloak and jamming on fully submerged units is penetrated by sonar (perhaps a recent engine change). To make this interaction more obvious we've made fully submerged units unable to cloak. This change barely affects game mechanics aide from saving energy and removing the underwater radar dot.
We also noticed that sufficiently deep units do not have any surface vision. This is an engine change and not part of the current design. However, it probably works so we'll not put effort in to work around it for the time being. |
As such, amphib units should be able to see underwater units as far away as they would see units on land. [see quote]
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quote:
We've investigated some preexisting sonar interactions and cleaned up some weirdness. One thing of note is that cloak and jamming on fully submerged units is penetrated by sonar (perhaps a recent engine change). |
I think this has proven to be wrong. Some units seem to be detected by sonar if they merely touch water.
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Underwater amphibious units still should be able to detect nearby units as radar(-like) dots using their sonar, but due to this change quote:
We also noticed that sufficiently deep units do not have any surface vision. This is an engine change and not part of the current design. However, it probably works so we'll not put effort in to work around it for the time being. |
they don't have direct vision if the water is too deep. I'm a bit doubtful about how well amph is working with the current vision mechanic but I don't know of an easy fix. As for the interaction between water and cloak, I once believed I understood it, but I think I no longer do. Perhaps science should be done at some point.
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Sonar used to only work on fully submerged units but was recently changed to work on anything that touches water.
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quote:
I don't know of an easy fix |
/me does the broken record impression by suggesting that if the whole point of sonar is Mex being unable to see Seawolf, then that is fixable by making Sea!Mex blind and removing sonar outright.
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Unless I'm missing something, that doesn't actually fix the problem of sufficiently underwater amph units having no line-of-sight on surface targets. Also, making seamex blind to everything is a cure worse than the disease.
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If this does what it says it does then this in fact should let submerged units see things. But removing sonar as a mechanic may also be achieved for exaample by giving it to everything in equal measure to sight and making it obey the same rules (=not piercing cloak)
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You haven't actually tested that modrule and made sure that it still does what one would assume it does.
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I've tested the requiresSonarUnderWater modrule (which is I believe what you were referring to) and I don't believe that either setting results in the desired behaviour (i.e. underwater units have surface LoS, or indeed any LoS at all). The other option you suggested... doesn't fix any of these problems either. The current LoS behaviour isn't even particularly consistent (i.e. Submarines are close enough to the surface to generally get LoS, but Amph units are typically not, except in shallow water).
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Sonar can detect even cloaked units in shallow water. I suggest to disable cloak as soon as the unit touches water
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Sonar is pretty much "radar" in water is it not?   Azur3dDo you know how to duckrush? Make 4-6 ducks, then run at enemy expansion, and they should win if it is lightly defended or not defended at all. Stay away from Warriors/Mace, this can somewhat take on a lone Redback and run from Leveller and Banisher, these riots can inflict heavy casualties. Well, all riots can.
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Whoa there's a unitcloaked/uncloaked callin? Is this available to widgets?
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Looks like it, you should really read the widget handler.
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I really should sometime. Becoming more aware of what information one has is useful for future projects. That's a pretty useful callin though!
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This thread has been very informative, thank you. I was (for some reason) originally under the impression that sonar would also grant some degree of surface vision, mainly because I had the impression that it provides "vision" for underwater units. However, it does make more sense that it functions like radar. I still see two problems remaining, and although I understand they are at least partially engine related, I feel it would improve the overall experience of Zero-K (at least when using amphib units) if underwater units would have at least some way to: 1) Spot aerial units within their firing range. The Angler is almost useless in deep water (unless forced to float). 2) Reclaim metal from underwater sources. The Conch should be able to reclaim from the seabed but it can't see the wreckage from any distance unless a surface spotter has LOS on the wreckage. The aerial spotting problem has workarounds and could be arguably seen as a tactical challenge for players, but I feel some effort could be directed in solving the underwater reclaiming problem.
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quote:
Reclaim metal from underwater sources. The Conch should be able to reclaim from the seabed but it can't see the wreckage from any distance unless a surface spotter has LOS on the wreckage. |
I... hadn't realised that. That is spectacularly terrible.
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