Lately, I've been making edits to the wiki in order to add more strategic and tactical tips to their use, or to countering them. During that time, I took a look at the Blitz's stats, saw that they did alot of damage-per-shot (including emp damage) and had alot of health, compared them to Riot units such as the Reaper, Outlaw, Ripper, Mace, and Redback, and the results seem to indicate that if those aforementioned Riot units aren't defeated by Blitzes, then they would probably come out of the fight heavily weakened. Because of this, I then looked into possible ways that Blitzes could be countered for those specific factories, and so far, I have a few ideas on how it could feasibly be done: - Cloakbots: [Spoiler]The Knight would probably be a better unit to counter Blitzes since it does everything that a Blitz does, but better (except for speed of course). In fact, Knights could be said to be similar to riot units, in that their weapons cannot be dodged by raiders, and they have the HP to withstand an assault by even high-weight raiders like the Blitz. - Shieldbots: [Spoiler]Since Outlaws do so little damage to a single target, I question their usefulness against not only high-weight raiders like the Blitz, but raiders in general. It takes at least 2 Outlaws to effectively stop a Glaive rush, and it'll take far more Outlaws to stop even a single Blitz. Because of that, I'd like to propose using Felons instead. Although the Felon relies upon having some shield energy on hand, its shield gun instantly hits, has long range on par with some skirmishers, and can zap a Blitz in 1.5 seconds, which is not enough time for a Blitz to get close enough to get even a single shot off against the Felon before it dies. - Rovers: [Spoiler]I'm not sure if a force of Rippers would stand up to an equal force of Blitzes, but I'm not liking the odds of a lone Ripper being able to come out on top of a lone Blitz. However, I've noticed that the Blitzes tend to overkill cheap scouts like Darts, so perhaps they could be used to swarm Blitzes to death? Also, since Dominatrices capture rays instantly hit, and since multiple Dominatrices can help to speed up the capture of single targets, perhaps any captured Blitzes would help keep the Dominatrices alive by running interference against the remaining Blitzes? - Hovers: [Spoiler]While exploring possible cost-effective counters to Blitz rushes, I came upon the Claymore anti-sub hovercraft, and wonder if anyone uses these units at all. Like the Kodachi, the Claymore is a fast hit-and-run unit that launches short-ranged depth charges with significant aoe, but with a low rate-of-fire. However, the depth charges also look like they pack one heck of a punch. Although, sadly, the Blitz looks like it'll be able to survive a direct hit from one of these units, perhaps a Mace, which, by itself, seems ill-suited to taking on the Blitzes, could then use its rapid-firing weapon to finish off the weakened Blitzes? - Spiders: [Spoiler]Again, since the Blitz overkills cheap scouts, perhaps Fleas could easily counter Blitzes through swarming? However, if the enemy is escorting Blitzes with, say, an Ogre, then perhaps Venoms would be a better choice, since they could probably stunlock the Blitzes before they stunlock the Venoms? However, since Venoms do so little normal damage on their own, they might need help from other units, like Hermits, to finish off any incapacitated Blitzes. As for Amphbots and Jumpbots, I believe that they could counter Blitzes fine enough through the usage of Archers, Scallops, Placeholders, and Moderators. Edit: Ogres should also work well for Tanks due to them packing a serious punch. What are your thoughts? Edit: Note that, if the raiders are spread out, and attack from multiple directions, then aoe riot units, like the Ripper and Ogre, become less effective (as I witnessed over the past few co-op games that I played online).
+1 / -0
|
Thoughts: Due to weight and stun properties, blitz is better vs. riots than is typical for a raider. They are more resistant to splash, and if they outnumber riots sufficiently they can stun-lock and kill without losses. Cloaky [Spoiler]
- One big tick and glaive follow up can win the game in 1v1.
- Comparable value in ronin, knight, and reaver also kinda works. Reavers and knights are slower and more cost effective, so you just want enough of these units to make sure you can't be dived, then the rest in ronin to bully opposing forces.
- Phantom is very good against all tanks because tanks largely lack the ability to screen for them.
DO NOT
- try to kill blitz with pure raider
- try to skirm blitz with pure ronin or phantom
Shield [Spoiler]
- thug + outlaw will make your ball undivable. Rogue will make it able to bully.
- Roach will obliterate large balls of blitz.
- Racketeer are not quite effective vs. blitz, but they are great against the rest of the factory meaning you'll be limiting your opponents options, making them predictable.
DO NOT
- use felon against tanks. It is somewhat effective vs. blitz, but is terrible against reaper, which is what tanks is usually trying to move into. Essentially you're facilitating your opponents gameplan by incentivising their already good options.
Rovers: [Spoiler]
- Rippers will stand up to blitz in equal cost. No problem. But ripper do suck against ogre.
- dominatrix is very effective against blitz, and pretty much the rest of the factory
DO NOT
- expect pure ravager to work
- try to combat with scorcher
MAYBE:
- Fencer push (+ ripper supp) at a timing before opponent has minataurs. This is strong vs. tanks early game, but can backfire hard if opponent reaches their assault mid-game.
Hovers: [Spoiler]
- scalpel ball
- end up with lance late game
DO NOT
- trade raiders with them, blitz murder dagger.
Spiders - Not recommended as first fac against tanks unless you've got a lot of terrain to abuse. [Spoiler]
- lots of fleas! Tanks have trouble keeping their expansion safe vs. fleas. Fleas also tend to be good against most units the tanks have. One blitz is worth 15 fleas. This is counterable by including one kodachi in blitz ball, but that has costs for the blitz ball too.
- venom + redback + hermit should be okay at fighting blitz head-on. However, making that fight happen is difficult.
- you've got an excellent option against tanks mid-late game in the widow. This will shut down minataur, ogre, and cyclops.
Amph - not recommended vs. tanks [Spoiler]
- I imagine buoy are pretty good vs. blitz, while also being pretty good vs. the rest of the fac.
DO NOT
- use ducks in this match-up
I think tanks are probably a bit OP atm, especially in team games. They are great at crushing newer players who don't know how to counter them (feeding the welder ball), and are pretty resilient to interference from stronger players until later in the game. Blitz is super powerful in the early game if you're somewhat competent, as it counters pretty much all raiders and is especially good at assaulting lightly porced areas. One big counter to blitz is likho, which will demolish blitz balls whenever they leave controlled air space. Tanks AA is also pretty bad against planes in general, so lighter plane options can be effective, such as thunderbird and phoenix.
+0 / -0
|
I think ripper and redback are slightly underpowered at the moment, that's part of the reason why they work worse than they should.
+4 / -0
|
I agree they're both a little weak, but are ripper really under-performing vs. blitz? Compared to against other raiders sure, but they're still a counter right? ...I haven't played enough recently.
+0 / -0
|
IME Dart is the superior option vs pure Blitz because it allows Rover to retain raider initiative. Though unsure if that still matters given the state of Welder.
+1 / -0
|
The trick to beating Blitz is to realize that they spent 300 metal on each Blitz. Generally, you should expect efficient trades when you have local superiority and a small force of Blitz is able to mess with this assessment. Another thing to keep in mind is that Blitz have approximately zero DPS for their price. Assaults and defenses are effective against them.
+3 / -0
|
What would you guys recommend for stopping blitzballs from raiding on big open maps like comet catcher? What would you spend the metal on an even economy? Keeping in mind my humanity when considering APM Requirements, and how easy it is to repeat queue blitzes and just shift waypoint a group at a time. One slip, economy gone, and game over. And dont say use another blitz ball please.
+0 / -0
|
I think ripper and redback are fine as they are, because spider hardly needs more riot power and rover has slashers which murder raiders anyways.
+0 / -0
|
Scrangos I often see @Godde dominate big map like CCR with early air switch, like at 5 min mark. As for unit choice, you pretty much always have to do the spammiest, fastest unit available. Scorchers, blitz, or glaive (if u crazy). Early thunderbird and ravens will help. Dominatrix are typically pretty good vs blitz but it requires a lot of babysitting, aka good APM.
+0 / -0
|
   Scrangos: 1st of all, raiders are best used to punish underdefended expansionism, so I'd work on developing the economy within my borders (such as linking mexes together for overdrive) before considering going out to claim new mexes. Still, you'll need your own raiders to punish the opponent from greedily expanding without building adequate defenses, though try to keep your raiders from engaging the enemy Blitzes unless you have a significant advantage. 2nd, In addition to countering Blitzes with Knights, Venoms, Ogres, Claymores, etc., I'd invest in an advanced radar behind your defensive lines, so that you could more easily see such an attack coming, and send your riots over to intercept the Blitzes. However, since the Blitzes, like other raiders, are so much faster than your riots, I wouldn't try to chase after them should they withdraw. (If you don't want to bother micromanaging your riots, consider building Desolators along your defensive line, whose aoe attacks should punish Blitz balls hard.) 3rd, since Blitzes, like other tanks, don't fare well with rough terrain, consider using terraform to create walls or ditches that are impassable for tanks. From my experience, terraforming 30-unit-deep ditches (which supposedly keep out anything that isn't a spider) is surprisingly cheap.
+0 / -0
|
I would say that there is no low APM counter to Blitzes on a map like CCR. Any easy counter to Blitzballs are too slow to keep up and the Blitzes can simply outmaneuver, if the counter have critical mass, or overrun them. Ogres are arguably the best counter but they are kinda slow and lone Ogres are overrun easily. However, once you have 2-3 of them with some support of your own Blitzes, there is no costeeffective way that a Blitzball can deal with them and you can start rolling towards the enemy and the Ogrees will deal with light porc and Welders just fine. I wouldn't recommend Rippers or Dominatrix. Especially Dominatrix can work on smaller maps where they aren't outmaneuvered as easily. I would rather recommend Scorchers and Darts in combination with defense. Blitzes have poor DPS and cannot deal easily deal with porc. However, Blitzballs will just stun and roll through light defense without a problem. However, having a force of Darts and Scorchers stalking the Blitzball means that the Blitzes can't engage the defenses without getting swarmed and they can't skirmish and kite against the Rover force without taking damage in the process. Also, I'd recommend getting Aircraft for Thunderbird and/or Raven. Thunderbird is excellent to buy you time for your Rovers to get into position while a critical mass of Ravens can take out small groups of Blitzes or Kodachis. However note that a critical force of Blitzes are immune to Ravens unless they are distracted by other things or have been disarmed by a Thunderbird first. If the Blitzes push through your defenses, Thunderbird is an excellent way to slow them and disarm them so that they can be slowed down and swarmed by Darts and Scorchers. Also counterraiding is usually a better way to deal with Blitz raiding than trying to stop the Blitzes directly. For every Dart and Scorcher near your enemies expansion, you force the enemy to divert expensive Kodachis and Blitzes for defense or make excessive amount of defenses. Blitzes and especially Kodachi cannot run down Scorchers easily while Darts can easily outrun them. 5 Scorchers can cause hell for the Tank player if he doesn't have Panthers or Kodachis to intercept, as the Scorchers are able to kill defenses and lone Welders quickly. The tank player cannot kill defenses quickly and he might not ever reach a deathball of Blitzes before Thunderbirds are up in the sky, preventing all breakthroughs. At a high level of skill, me and rANDY considers Comet Catcher Redux to be a Rover map because of this.
+2 / -0
|
 https://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/521785https://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/521805Doesnt even need to be comet catcher, blitzes are just retarded atm. Im not sure why theres an unit thats as fast as a glaive, tanky like an assault, and has perfect accuracy and a dmg per hit that can act as a riot ontop. Its hard en ough to try and out micro. And dont say ticks, they become irrelevant really fast cause it only stuns like 2-3 blitzes infront since the rest are too far back or too tanky to get stunned by it. Ive tried. Stilleto isnt even useful against em cause again, THEY ARE ABOUT AS FAST AS GLAIVES.
+0 / -0
|
perfectly flat maps like red comet are essentially vehicle maps so if youre trying to use bots, good luck with that lol, youd need snipers or something rovers are viable vs blitz on red comet, hovers probably too but i dont know much about hovers
+1 / -0
|
I thought we had moved to a "all factories are viable" balance now? But even not, its kinda bonkers to have units that have so much alpha and tankyness move that fast.
+0 / -0
|
All factories are map dependent. Always have been. Hilly maps are good for bots. Maps with steep cliffs or impassable terrain good are for spider and jump bot. Maps with water are good for amphib and hover. Maps that are flat are good for rover, tank and possible hover. Youd obviously be crazy to make vehicle on a hilly map like Sierra V2 and its similar for making bots on flat map. Thats not to say it cant be viable. I'm sure something like shields or jump bot could potentially work on red comet but its perfectly flat so obviously if any map is good for rover/tank its a flat map.
+1 / -0
|
I think blitz is just a good unit when it gets critical mass but there is a really big elo difference between u and deinfreund so you are already at a disadvantage before lab comes into play and then youre playing with handicap lab so its extra difficult. I do think its possible to win with cloaky but you need to play it perfectly to make it happen, like glaive raiding and solid macro to afford snipers. There's a lot of units in ZK that seem insane and unstoppable when the enemy is allowed to get critical mass, like dominatrix for example but its often just about superior macro. Sometimes with units like this there is no "counter" if you fallen behind in macro. BTW didnt watch replays just guessing.
+0 / -0
|
I was told that after i had stopped playing previously and the steam release now factories were all balanced to be viable, not aiming to be just a map based mirror match every match. And those replays arent against the same player even >.> im aware that i wouldnt beat dein even if it was balanced, thats not what im trying to show
+0 / -0
|
When you have some units that are all-terrain, amphibious or only flat terrain, I dont see how you can have PERFECT balance with a diverse map pool. Thats crazy talk.
+0 / -0
|
wiki says blitz deals it's 74 + 185(P) dps with 260 range. It's also insta-hit and bursty. they have 102 speed, pyro has 90 but has better maneuverability and can jump. If you consider the weapons to be roughly equivalent in cost-effectiveness and the fact that blitz has about +70% hp, and costs about 35% more, it seems somewhat balanced in terms of raw cost-effectiveness. Maybe what happens is most factories don't have the right tools to deal with them. Maybe the pyro is also slightly OP but its low HP keeps it easy to counter. blitz is an annoying design because of the paralyze damage. Units with builtin crowd control are annoying because fights with them snowball harder than normal, and their speed and hp allows them to choose engagements and survive. Other factories may want to skip trying to counter raid and push with a single squad of units that the blitzes can't face in direct combat (ogre+welder, thuglaw+rogue, area cloaker+reaver+knight), and leave stardusts to cover key parts of the existing territory (this will fail if the enemy decides to thunderbird the defenses and overrun them anyway, but that's another issue). Sometimes the best counter to "fire" is just "water", with no "fire" at all.
+2 / -0
|
Is it possible to balance all facs with the current maps? I dont know. Im asking what the goal is. And im hoping the current map pool is just a temporary thing. Like ive said elsewhere, these maps that were inherited from spring, not made for zks balance and playstyle. Is it possible to make maps where all the land factories are balanced to plop? I dont know as well. I'd like to know what the goal is if im wrong, cause if its just gonna develop into a mirror match every match in competitive (yes thats exactly whats gonna happen as people get more serious), the game sorta loses parts of its appeal, never been a fan of mirrors. Specially if each fac has like 6 units... thats a 6 unit mirror... bleh... I have tried the death push against blitz balls, they are fast enough to go around and wipe your eco and still come back to kill your army under whatever porc they have. They can cc to help their porc, and they can raid your skirms and do pretty well vs your riots. Also, going by "brawliness" which is goddess term, +70% hp is worth a lot more than +30% metal. When units sit and duke it out they can dps for 70% longer since they are alive that much longer. Pyros are garbage in comparison, nearly equal dps (and part of it isnt stackable), less hp by a lot, less movespeed. (yes i understand they can jump, but jump doesnt scale in lategame and takes too much micro to be useful lategame). Two armies of equal total hps and dps, the one that has more hp per unit will win since the other one will start losing dps earlier (Classic vanilla starcraft marine vs hydra).
+1 / -0
|
