Lance is absolute cancer in team games

Lance needs a massive nerf because currently the side that spams more lances wins.

For exemplary replays: see every single team game played.

Very incorrect.

- Micro-heavy. You need to contantly dodge enemy units, esp. impaler shots.

- Turnrate is pathetic.

- Hard countered by likhos, there's no escape.

- Useless in dirtbagged terrains

- Can't really one-shot a lot of units as it might appear

quote: Very incorrect. - Micro-heavy. You need to contantly dodge enemy units, esp. impaler shots. - Turnrate is pathetic. - Hard countered by likhos, there's no escape. - Useless in dirtbagged terrains - Can't really one-shot a lot of units as it might appear

- You don't need to constantly dodge if they are cloaked, only move after firing

- Turnrate doesn't matter much for long range units

- With proper spread it is Likho that is countered as Lances can hit it (together with any AA that is in place), and it can bomb at most 1-2 Lances at a time, if only they actually decloak.

- agree to last two

They really got easier to use after the 'avoid bad targets' update.
No more need to manual fire or get baited by fleas.
so they instagib correct targets.

I used to play gunships a lot. But with lances and artemis on 'avoid bad targets' they are useless.

katastrophe I'd downvote myself.

quote: - With proper spread it is Likho that is countered as Lances can hit it (together with any AA that is in place), and it can bomb at most 1-2 Lances at a time, if only they actually decloak.

and, the player with the lances will likely get the reclaim.
its also common that : air players sees decloaked lance - moves in likho - lance cloaks when likho gets close - likho shot down by aa and unfired lance. AND likho just flies in the air where the lances dissapered unless microed every second

quote: - Useless in dirtbagged terrains

its not that expensive to smooth ground, but i agree terraform in general counter lances from pushing pretty well. although its abit annoying to use
also, dirtbags don't swim, terraform are expensive in sea

quote: - Can't really one-shot a lot of units as it might appear

it doesn't, but it also doesn't have to. for example, siren,shield bot,or mino. yes, it doesn't one shot them, but pretty much half of their hp are just gone, its not very easy to push with that. you can easily drag out time for you to make more lances

although i think its one of the meta, i don't think its OP, but its definitely a pain to fight

haldberd counters it pretty well, but your opponents will get the reclaim, so its only cost effective when you're sure you will be able to push, or they dont have enough dps that your halbers will get out alive.
(seawolf or duck works sometimes, but it requires your opponent to make mistakes, so not very practical)

Some thoughts:

- Air is somewhat out of the main counter-structure, so I would also classify Likho as a counter to lance, but I don`t think that says much as likho counters soo many things.

- Same with the dirtbag-terrain-deform, just that this is more a hazzle than a counter in most cases.

- In general I don`t think it is that useful to make an grument like: "Oh, but x counters y." On paper, there are many counters: raider swarms, Scythes, Skuttle, Bombers, Swifts somehow, Napalm Bombers, Ultimatum, Merlin, Behemoth, Lucifer, Impaler, everything that is cloaked. Most of them do on paper, but that doesn`t mean they would be useful in reality.

- The question is more: Is the interaction with this unit on the recieving end intersting and fun? I personally don`t think lances are too strong in the game as a whole, but playing against them is frustrating in many ways. I am particularily annoyed with lances killing swarms of small units when those happen to run somewhere, lance shoots at the leading unit and the following units run into the beam.

- So for me PERSONALLY: I have the same problem with lance as I basically have with jumpers. I dislike playing against them, I do not enjoy the interaction at all. But I don`t think that has to do with their balance stats-wise, but more the weapon-design. So, IDEALLY I would replace those units with other ones. In the case of lance, you would have to come up with something that keeps the original units "charme" (the stuff Aquanim put down) but that somehow feels more "fair" to the one playing against it. IDEALLY. I am aware that would require tons of work and is unlikely to happen.

quote: From the teamgames I have watched or played recently (including TinySpider's most recent team game) I do not get the impression that it is a game-defining unit in every team game, or even in every game on a map where it would potentially be practical.

- I would throw in that there are many games i remember where lances do become a very significant part of a victory. By far not ALL games as you say. But I would say IF they are used in the correct setting, they have a tendency of drifting more towards the "situationaly overpowered" units.

quote: Lances will never murder themselves if they are stationary while firing.

he is still so young and innocent.

idea: half damage/sec, double beam damage time (reduces alpha while keeping dps) => more of a static-killer. you can move out of the lazor

The model has potentially animatable bits that would work with stop to fire. Stop to fire like on Emissary would make it much less harder for Lance to snipe'n'kite even with cloak. Simultaneously, it would lower incidence of suicide by jank.