Opinions on whether players can be kicked out if they don't do anything at the beginning of the game

GoogleFrog

cause

In a previous game, due to a player not performing any actions at the beginning of the game, what is certain is that he is here, and after waiting for a period of time, he still hasn't taken any action.

In order to further prevent resource waste, if this continues, the balance of the game has been disrupted, and the game results may have been determined from the beginning, continuing is just a waste of time, I voted on whether to kick him out and ultimately passed the vote. But after the game ended, I was kicked out.

Afterwards, Aquanim asked me to explain the reason for doing so, I explained to him the reason for kicking the player out of the game, he just said that this kind of thing can't be done again, after further explaining the reason for doing so, his response is: "not really interested." "i have told you the rules of the community and you are expected to follow them." "i dont care about your opinion on the matter."

process

Aquanim said how to handle this matter, to summarize, there are three ways:

• Automatically allocate resources after waiting for the system to determine as AFK (This is where opinions differ. If after a period of time, he still hasn't done anything and the system hasn't determined that he's not there, in order to prevent wasting game resources and affecting game balance, I think it's possible to vote to kick him out)

• If he only moves the mouse (the system cannot determine if it is AFK), repeatedly doing such things can be reported.

• Can exit.

In a word, anyway, you can't kick him out for this.

So that I expressed the hope that others would evaluate whether the behavior of kicking out the player was correct.

Aquanim response is: "that will have exactly zero effect on the moderator action applied to you if you do this again. but do as you like i guess."

So, with this topic.

https://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/1726975

Everyone can watch this game，Comment on whether the behavior of kicking out players in this vote is correct.

conclusion

If there is no reasonable reason to prohibit doing so:

Unless the program sets that a person cannot be kicked out before being judged as AFK by the system at the beginning of the game, as long as I wait for a period of time and the resources he receives exceed his storage limit for a period of time, which leads to resource waste and may affect the final outcome of the game, as long as the program allows me to choose to vote to kick out (or if there are other voting methods besides kicking out, such as not being able to play this game and still being able to participate in the next game, but currently not having this option), If I want to vote, I will continue to vote, which I believe is reasonable, as for whether other people voted to agree or whether the final result of the vote was passed, I don't care.

As for how Aquanim will handle such matters in the future，I'm not interested either, but do as you like i guess.

An important point missing from this thread:

If you have a problem with somebody's conduct that falls short of deliberate griefing, you should attempt to talk to them to resolve it before kicking them. In this case you could have paused the game for a bit.

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HistidineStar was kicked for the room for a combination of:

• Not communicating before the kick
• The kick itself, which as it turned out was for no good reason since Surfmaniac was actually present, which you would have found out with a little more patience
• Not answering my immediate query in the game about the kick (ok, you are playing the game, but then...)
• Not answering my questions after the game about the kick

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I guess I will also dump the chat logs since HistidineStar has seen fit to quote me out of context.

[Spoiler]

quote: the resources he receives exceed his storage limit for a period of time, which leads to resource waste

This seems incorrect. The resources of an excessing player, AFK or not, are excessed *to their teammates*.

Interesting discussion.

I for one very much sympathize with HistidineStar for being annoyed that a team mate is exhibiting the strategy and dynamism of a decaying potato. That said its not even as bad as the noob players that build a solar wall and fence of stingers around their base at the back where they build their pet Detriment.

I also agree with Aquanim that the team should possibly have prodded him into action or talked to him before voting for a kick.

I would also say that a bit of leeway should be given to experienced players that build a couple of storages early and are a little less dynamic. Some strategies such as porc push are legitimate and building defences fast in the forward line can only be achieved with a small army of cons and a quota of stored metal.

Ok, @Kosynthary, your point about resources being automatically allocated to others when they exceed storage limits illustrates a situation I didn't know about before, and I hadn't noticed what Aquanim said about it before, I just thought resources would be wasted(Because the resource display numbers are still bouncing instead of zero). However, when the player is kicked out, not only his commander and factory but also his stored 500 resources, of course, this is a little less than previously thought of as a waste of resources, but it is certainly beneficial, especially at the beginning of the game. And if he acts, he can use the initial resources to bring more revenue, not just the original fixed resources, and I can do other things.

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Let me first address what Aquanim considers to be important questions

quote: In this case you could have paused the game for a bit.

When a player loses an Internet connection or afk, it is possible to pause or ask, in order to maintain fairness. In this game I see no need to pause and ask, it will be explained below

quote: 2.Surfmaniac was actually present

This has been explained above, all are aware of his presence, because at the beginning of the waiting, he chose the commander, indicating that he is present

quote: 1.Not communicating before the kick

For this game, we've been waiting from the very beginning, we can see it on replay, there's even a vote to force the start, he chooses the commander, we all know he's there, and then he still doesn't do anything, no matter what he's doing, what's the point of asking him what he's doing? There is no other choice but to continue to wait. At this time, it is a waste of not using his own resources, which has affected the balance of the early game. However, after waiting, we chose not to continue to wait, and finally voted to kick out and voted to pass. Maybe as a moderator, you have your position and would ask for more, but in this case, I don't think it's necessary to pause and ask no matter what the position. We all know he's here, but he hasn't done anything, and we've been waiting for him for a long time since the game started.

quote: 3.Not answering my immediate query in the game about the kick (ok, you are playing the game, but then...)

At that time, my attention was on the game controls and I didn't pay attention to your inquiry.

quote: 4.Not answering my questions after the game about the kick

After the game to see your inquiry, is organizing to prepare a reply, after being kicked private message reply. You said before that I need to be more patient, so have you been patient while waiting for my reply? But I think you have, just like I think I had the patience to wait for him to act before I voted to kick him, so maybe this so-called patience needs to have a standard?

But you already said that

quote: The kick itself, which as it turned out was for no good reason since Surfmaniac was actually present

, so any explanation is not important to you anymore, is it?

So what you might think of as the need to communicate before kicking the player out is important, but in this game it's not important for the player in the game, for reasons that have been explained.

And the two important issues I think are balance and whether it's possible to kick players out of it, and your point is not to care and prohibit kicking players out of it, right?

Well, I think I've answered your question.

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The following reply is @Kosynthary opinion

Watching the replay, he started to move when the vote was about to pass, but I was doing something else in the game at the time and I didn't notice him. It should be noted that in games and watching are different, and the vote passes quickly, and it is not certain whether he moved because of the quick vote or something else (which means it is not certain whether he would have moved anyway without the vote).

Inaction itself is also a waste of resources, because there is more additional revenue through the base resources. After kicking him out, I will not only get his factory and commander, but also a part of his own resources. With his commander, I can save the construction of a builder, and with the factory, I can produce other units to fight against opponents more easily. If I can allocate resources better earlier, build units faster, build defensive towers faster, maybe my commanders won't die in the beginning, which is very important in the early stages and can't be ignored.

If we wait for 3 minutes as you said, I think the game will already be over by then. It's better to just exit as Aquanim said. We have been waiting for a while, he hasn't done anything, his resources have not been used, which is a waste. We are already at a disadvantage, so it's better to kick him out and try again.

Like you said, if it was 30 people maybe I wouldn't care so much, maybe I'm just having fun and I don't particularly want to win and I don't care so much, or other players have other ideas, but the problem is that Aquanim totally prohibits kicking players out because of this, and I think it's optional, players can choose to vote or not vote.

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Lu5ck

I was preparing to answer Aquanim question and didn't notice how I got kicked out, but this question is not important

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Shaman

You are a great moderator who can identify the main issues and discover more. Communicating with you is better than Aquanim, but I'm sorry, I can't accept your suggestion. I think since you can identify the main issues, you can also understand the reason why I did this. Because you only asked me to change my perspective and did not solve the problem I mentioned. I'm sorry, The things you listed do not have much to do with the main issues I mentioned, but I will still reply to some of them.

quote: DErankSurfmaniac was not doing anything to really harm anyone else. Yes, it can skew balance very slightly, but these sorts of things are what WHR is there for. Your job as a moderator isn't to fix game balances; it's to fix social issues and keep the peace. Other players were not complaining about them either.. so you've failed the first check.

So, based on what you said, I can think that what zero-k pursues is not true balance, but balance under community harmony, right? My opinion is that players can choose balance under the community harmony you mentioned, and when they want to win, they can also pursue true balance, rather than being completely prohibited by Aquanim.
It should be noted that this is a vote and with the consent of others, it was not me who kicked him out directly

quote: Does DErankSurfmaniac have a history of playing poorly on purpose? AFAIK, they still have the benefit of the doubt and as such I'm way more likely to write this off as fatigue, toilet break, reorientation, luaui reload, or stretching (This game took place at their 02:00 which was your 08:00, you're more likely to be fresh while they're more likely to be winding down or on their final hours of the day.. keep that in mind). Remember: you should not expect people to play at your level or at 100%, 100% of the time. Be fair with your expectations.

Thank you very much for considering so much. I seem to have been playing all night, but I don't think it really matters much for the questions I raised.

quote: I do think you should reach out and apologize to DErankSurfmaniac for the kick, at the very least. We should do what we can to maintain functional social relationships in the community as we're more or less stuck with each other.

I doubt whether he really does not know the reason, and at least because others affect the balance and need me to apologize, I think this is not reasonable, if you say that it is better to communicate for harmony, I think it is acceptable, but please understand that I have no obligation to do so.

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Okay, let's return to the important question, which is the topic of this titile: Can players be kicked out at the beginning of the game for not doing anything?

There are two questions to confirm:

1. Can we choose to vote to kick out players or prohibit voting in this game? (Some views on the game may be slightly different, but only discuss whether voting is allowed or prohibited)
2. Can players in the future choose to vote and kick out players at the beginning of the game, or completely prohibit voting regardless of the situation?

To summarize:

Aquanim and Shaman believe that it should be completely prohibited (Although Shaman has said a lot, I believe Shaman's ultimate viewpoint is the same as Aquanim's).

@Kosynthary did not express a clear viewpoint.

And my opinion is that players can choose to vote when pursuing more balance, or they can choose not to vote because of other circumstances. Perhaps I did this and I don't want to be voted, but I think it's reasonable for others to vote for me because of this, rather than Aquanim completely prohibiting it.

Others can express opinions, or the administrator can provide final conclusions.

If there are no other opinions that I think are reasonable, I will continue to do so. I believe it is reasonable.

As for Aquanim, do as you like , you can also ban my ip.

I'm happy to see that there is a discussion about the incident.
I was a bit distracted by my kitten and not paying attention for some seconds and then I was kicked which felt quite harsh.

Literally when I came back to screen I was kicked as I was about to plop my fac.
But this now makes me feel better and understand why it happened =).

I could have a lot to say about that post, but in the interests of not dragging this thread out I'll just say this.

quote: My opinion is that players can choose balance under the community harmony you mentioned, and when they want to win, they can also pursue true balance, rather than being completely prohibited by Aquanim.

Kicking a player from the game doesn't even achieve this! If you insist on playing a perfectly fair game, the solution at that point in time was an exit vote.

quote: if you say that it is better to communicate for harmony, I think it is acceptable, but please understand that I have no obligation to do so.

You do have an obligation to do so, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not. I don't understand why there is such a problem with having to attempt communication first. What would it cost you?

quote: Is votekicking (a player who the system has not ruled as AFK) allowed in the beginning of the game?

As per the Code of Conduct:

quote: Several tools available to players (including kicking players and exiting a game) are ordinarily moderator powers but are available to users by means of a poll for cases when a moderator is not available. These tools should only be used in ways that a moderator would use them.

"What would a moderator do" is in many cases a complicated question based on judgement and context. So it is difficult to give a simple answer to your question.

In this particular incident, if a good faith attempt had been made to communicate with Surfmaniac before the kick vote, then I might still have expressed disapproval (depending on exactly what happened) but I do not think it would have escalated to (another) kick.

A different phrasing of the rule is "your actions should appear reasonable from the perspective of the moderators". Given that HistidineStar does not seem to either understand or have much respect for the moderators' perspective it would probably be wise for them to avoid using kickvotes in future (outside of removing blatant griefers).

Shaman, I am not completely opposed to some of your views, but the first discussion is not about which is better or worse, but can or can not.

And in this situation, communication is not important or necessary. We have been waiting for him from the beginning. After he chooses the commander, we continue to wait for him. If he has something to do, he did not say, such as pausing, maybe he just believes that his own things do not affect other people in the game, and it is not a problem that we knew clearly from the beginning, such as network issues or other issues. Moreover, when he chooses the commander, it indicates that he is here, he just didn't do anything, we waited, we don't know if he will continue to act, no matter what the reason is, he hasn't done anything for a period of time, and the resources haven't been used, which has already affected the balance of the early game. (Maybe there are 30 people here or I don't really want to win or other situations, I may not care too much.) If we continue like this, the game will lose even more. And in the end, we no longer chose to wait. I voted and others also chose to agree and passed the vote. And we want to continue the game and try to see if we can win.

You hope to separate the pursuit of more balance and leisure, allowing for more balance in high scoring competitions and more leisure in public lobby. However, this is only a way of adjustment and does not completely solve the problem. I think you also understand.

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Here is a summary of the ways I can choose to address this situation:

• 1. resign
• 2. exit
• 3. vote exit. As Aquanim says, it's a perfectly balanced choice.
• 4. vote kick out. For players who have been playing for a while (unwilling to start again) or want to continue playing for other reasons but need more balance to avoid losing.

If a player has not used any resources for a period of time at the beginning and the game balance has been broken at the beginning, the following inquiry is only a way to understand the situation and cannot affect the game balance that has already been affected. Therefore, inquiry is no longer very important. Asking, pausing, or waiting for explanation is not very meaningful, no matter what they are doing, such as making a phone call or other things.

But moderators they hope you can do more, they hope you can think more about community harmony, they hope you can communicate, or something else, rather than just considering balance issues in the game. I am not completely opposed to their ideas, and I also believe that some of their ideas are beneficial. But I think in some situations it is optional rather than necessary.

For players who are more concerned about wanting to win and therefore vote directly to kick him out , I think if he is kicked out, because his things have affected those players who do not want to start again and want to win more, he can understand the behavior of being kicked out of the game, and after finishing his tasks, he can wait and participate in the next game.

• 5. Continue to wait and make a decision based on the future situation. Regardless of the impact at the beginning of the game, the selection can wait for a period of time to ask, or wait for afk, or other situations, and make a decision based on the later situation.

• 6. Anyway, willing to continue playing. For example, just to play, not particularly concerned about winning or losing games.

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The above is my summary of the situation, but regarding the 4th option, moderators do not allow you to do so (Although I think at least players can choose to vote, others can also choose to agree or disagree, decide based on voting results). So the problem I mentioned still cannot be solved.

I don't think it makes much sense to continue discussing, and based on the above situation, I will choose 2th option to exit when this similar situation happens in the future. Other players can choose to continue or use other methods. I apologize for the impact of my exit on other players, but please understand that the initial cause of this problem is not me, and the problem I mentioned has not been resolved and I didn't get the perfect solution, This is the choice I can make in all the situations I can think of.

If it is not because of the network problem(or downloading a new map, or other similar issues that other players already know from the beginning. Players can choose to pause, inquire, exit, continue, or other methods for voting at the beginning. I think there won't be much debate among others about how to handle such situations), but because other things are not available, If you don't mind, of course you can, if you are willing to wait for me to express my gratitude, for you sometimes do not want to start again, concerned about the balance of the beginning, unwilling to lose, or other players who have such thoughts, you can vote directly to kick me out. Because no matter what the reason is, doing nothing for a period of time has already had some impact on balance and other players, if I get kicked out, I can understand, but please note that this situation is not recognized by the moderator and you may still be punished, so it is only targeted at me.

For me, this topic has come to an end.

As for Aquanim, I don't want to communicate with you anymore. I won't reply to you again in the future. This is my last reply. Just do as you like.

What if autistic people take long to decide their tactics for the game. There are so many choices to made about which fac, where to start... It's really difficult to make all these choices in such a short time. Yes I have seen autistic people take up to 15 minutes just to decide what they should put on their bread. I know they might be unfit to play this game even though they are intelligent but have sometimes problems making choices.