What are the best uses for knights?

I was thinking through the units in cloaky factory, and realized that I basically never use knights.
They cost 350, have 2500hp, move at 51 elmos/sec, and have a range of 340 elmos.

For comparison:(cost), (hp), (speed), (range)
Knight: 350, 2500 , 51, 340
Minotaur: 850, 7200, 73, 360
Thug: 175, 950+1200, 57, 280
Ravager: 250, 2200 , 88, 320
Halberd: 210, 1450*, 96, 200
Blitz: 300, 1300, 97, 245

Their hp isn't anything special for cost, nor is their dps.

Of course, they have a lightning gun, which makes them unique. It also doesn't benefit from high ground like the projectile weapons of most assaults. It "can" be used for riot, but it tends to lock on, wait a moment, then fire. fast units can and do still dodge the lightning gun.

They can move on uneven terrain, but can't fire past eachother or even a small hill due to the nature of their weapon.

Because they are the slowest* assault, and assaults are already the slowest units, they can't pick engagements. Other assaults of a higher weight class can kite them outright, while similar weights can choose to only fight when they are going to win.

They are supremely vulnerable to skirmishers (and even artillery). They are quite vulnerable to low cost raiders.

They don't do great against other assaults, in a fight with even costs.

The only times I find myself choosing to build them are very early game to deal with an llt or two, or as barely mobile turrets to use against higher-cost raiders like the pyro or kodachi. That said, a heavy laser tower is barely more cost and dramatically more effective at that role. Their slow speed doesn't give much better value than turrets for defense.

They might be okay against jacks, but jacks get to pick their fights.

Maybe I'm missing some great uses for the knight that I havent seen, hence the post.
(Also, maybe it's supposed to barely work, because that isn't the "thing" for cloakbots?)

Steel blue:
Every factory except rovers and hover have some con ability that improves their survivability. Convict, I'd argue, is dramatically better at this.

Repairing assaults at the front should be done for all assaults, and isnt unique to knights. Other assaults with more speed have the flexibility to retreat for repair easier, also.

Blocking shots for low hp assaults is a tactic of all assaults. their fast turning does make it easier... but, also, they block eachother's shots; this dramatically limits their scalability.

i think they are best used as meatshields, which fit nicely to the assault role. they are the worst at it, because of the low speed, but theyare the best unit for this job, if you only have the cloak fac.

advanced strats time
Lightning gun is very good in the sense that it *doesn't kill stuff.* That means that units like dominatrixes get to steal the units knights stun, and charons (or hercules's) can steal the units to be reclaimed at your own base.

Also, stun weapon usually has higher damage output than a regular gun. The only problem is finishing the job. But unlike disarm weapons, knight weapon also immobilizes units, allowing for its victims to be quickly finished off by stuff like sling and impalers, which usually struggle to get kills.

Even without exploiting other factories' strengths, knights can be cloaked. And if a knight army engages with another army, it's hard to disengage.



Thus, the best way to buff knights would be to maximize these strengths, maybe at the cost of maximizing its negligible weaknesses. (Maybe make the knight closer to the cost of a thug or even ravager, too, but I'm not sure about that one. Cloakbots need heavy units in their arsenal, heavy units with high cost.)

Advanced strats brainstorming over.

quote: @cliver5 is... is that a chatgpt response?

Cliver5 As a chat-gpt model, I am offended. Could you clarify yourself? I didn't quite get that.

Is there some technical reason why lightning guns don't always hit? Or is that intentional? I was playing around with it, and knights can even avoid shots from other knights by turning fast. That definitely adds to frustration.

I tried using knights in one match today, to support a failing front. I made 20 or so over the game and used terraformed cloak towers. They were kinda okay at punishing units who ran directly into them; including a scorpion that managed to only stun one. The enemy had pillagers and other arty; generally once decloaked they were dead not long after, because retreat is too slow and you can't recloak when getting hit.

I'm not sure I'd say they were much better than any other unit in that role though, and I don't think they would have made cost without the scorp kill.. and that's because the enemy walked a scorp, alone, directly into a line of 10 knights, which makes the cost equal, and wasted its gun.

I wonder if there is a missed opportunity to have them synergize with their factory better.

Side note: The cloaky factory has some of the fastest and the slowest units in the game. Mixing unit speeds is a micro nightmare.

...
knights gain invulnerability to EMP/Disarm.
Don't look at me.

I played around a bit, comparing them to other assaults.

2 Knight vs 4 thug (even metal): The thugs get completely kited, and do basically no damage, if the knights keep at max range. The thug IS faster, but not so much faster that they can catch up. That said, the knights have to run away. Ingame the thugs would get to avoid this engagement. If the knights don't run(but still dodge), then the thugs manage to kill one and do ~80% damage to the other before all dying. Knights can dodge the thug's gun, so the outcome is highly variable. But who fields thugs alone? A single rogue, or even an outlaw for the slow, makes this a totally different engagement. Since the thugs get to pick their fights (speed advantage), they could also retreat to recharge shields after a few shots.

5 knights vs 2 minotaur(50 metal advantage to knights): Minotaur can kite them and suffer barely any damage, while killing them quite quickly. Brief periods of disengagement to let the stun go down, and juggling which tank is exposed improves the outcome. In an outright slugfest(Read: tanks being controlled by an idiot), the minotaurs still win with one tank at half health so long as two knights are killed before one of the tanks is stunlocked. If one tank gets stunlocked up front, the knights win barely. Knights can dodge some shots.

3 knights vs 4 ravagers(50 metal advantage to knights): Lose one ravager maybe, killing all knights. The ravager can actually kite the knights if the knights are giving chase. Ravagers also have the range and flexibility to only expose themselves to one knight at a time, since they basically have the same range. Best move for the knights is to absolutely avoid chasing the ravagers, and make sure to quickly form a line to the current positions of the ravagers, to have the best chance of landing hits. In a straight charge and slugfest, lose two ravagers to kill all knights. This can be improved with a silly tactic: Charge dead into the knights, and push/drag one of them away from the others, until you are out of range of the other two. Kill it, then repeat to separate the last two. This tactic usually only loses one ravager.

2 knights vs 4 hermits(*100* metal advantage to knights): ON FLAT TERRAIN, the hermits completely kite the knights, suffering no damage. If you do the absolutely dumbest thing ever and charge directly into the knights, you lose 2 hermits and still kill the knights. This one surprised me the most: Hermit is faster, has more range, more dps for cost, is all terrain, and benefits massively from elevated positions.

2 knights vs 3 halberds(40 metal advantage to knights): Halberds win with one remaining. They take very little damage or stun until in range, then very quickly annihilate the knights. They still suffer a bit of stun, but can confidently win this engagement every time. Can also benefit from pushing the knights apart, like ravagers.

6 knights vs 7 blitz(even metal): The knight is favored a little. I can consistently micro the blitzes to kill 3 knights, while losing 3 blitzes, then escape. There is accumulated EMP and damage that needs repaired at that point, while the other knights are unharmed. Staying results in one more dead knight, and losing all blitzes. That said, the blitzes are able to retreat effectively and get those repairs; if they did so and returned, 4 blitzes can kill the remaining knights without losses. Good micro for the blitzes would be avoiding shots from the knights when approaching, mobbing a single knight, and making sure to hide behind whatever knight you are shooting; since the knights can't shoot past eachother. Pushing knights apart is also still effective. Notably, the blitzes almost always stun one knight before they suffer a stun themselves. Good micro for the nights is singling out a blitz for dead, and making sure that they can all fire.

Some other engagements:
*Jacks are too slow, so have a hard time catching more than one knight.
*Pyros are terrible vs knights, because they get stunned by a single shot, have low alpha, and are easy to hit.
*Knights can stun a jugglenaught if it's being controlled by an idiot. Otherwise, it can pick them apart. Even Jugglenaut outruns knights, without jumping.
*They can kill any striders they close range with, for cost, except detriment. This means they can slow strider advances, in larger numbers. They are not fast enough compared to striders to catch them in the open field though, assuming the strider retreats into friendly lines. But using striders totally unsupported is idiocy.

(Before you think that they counter jumpy: They are useless against a firewalker, or moderators.)

* They kite reavers, and stun in a single hit.
* They are evenly matched against rippers, if they spread to not die to AOE
* They aren't terrible against all raiders. This doesn't make them good, but they tend to be able to fight off lesser-metal groups of raiders on their own. For even metal, low cost raiders always win. Mid-high cost raiders are a mixed bag.
* Scythe does very well against them
* They can tank licho bombs, but take a lot of damage. Since they are lowish cost (so you need more than a few), they are actually quite vulnerable to fire bombs or firewalkers.
* They are slower than shield balls(even without lob meta), so their extra damage against shields is sorta moot.

All of these engagements are, frankly, unrealistic. Their slow speed makes them the most hardcountered by skirmishers of any assault. If my enemy starts using knights, I'll start making some skirmishers to mix in.

As a general statement, being more effective when cloaked is in no way unique to the units in the cloaky factory. Being slow so it's necessary to stay cloaked isn't an advantage.

As of right now, I really don't think that they have anything good that compensates for their abyssmal speed. They don't get better range, dps, or health. They are hardcountered by literally anything that outranges them, including other assaults. They have the second worse movetype in the game, and are dramatically affected by non-flat terrain anyway, so really want to be on flat ground.




Being immune to emp would be a very strong synergy with the imp. As of right now, putting the knight close enough to act after an imp makes then extremely vulnerable to just having the imp get them killed. That said

Another thought I had: What if the lightning gun emp arced to nearby enemies? Only the emp effect, not damage. Possibly only arcing to units that are already stunned or already have stun above a certain %. That doesn't increase their damage output, but does make protracted engagements with them more dangerous.


I uhh, totally didn't waste my entire morning doing all this.

For Knight vs. Ravager, the Knights should be able to avoid being picked off one at a time with a yo-yo maneuver. Line up and retreat, but when the Ravagers turn towards them and get close to their attack range, reverse direction with all but the closest Knight. The Ravagers' slow turning, and maybe the opponent's slow reaction time, let the other Knights into range.

For Knight vs. Thug ball, I think they get a decent advantage for cost if there's a Felon involved. The need to not leave the Felon behind limits the Thugs' mobility, and the Knights' ward fire and high health make the Felon an inefficient attacker.

CabinBoy:
I did (in the wall of text) mention raiders. It is true that they have a little more flexibility there than most assaults. They hardcounter pyro, for example.

Mostly, I am comparing them to assaults because most everything else gets to avoid them.
We can assume they do okay vs riot, and are hardcountered by skirms.

Against your average raiders, in equal metal, they are doing ~0.6-0.8 times cost. The lower weight the raider, the worse knights do.

In matches, I'd happily fight attacking knights with glaives, scorchers, or bandits. I can't say the same for [insert riot unit here].