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Matchmaking with uneven numbers

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21 days ago
Having played a few games recently, I think the matchmaker is slightly off with uneven numbers with a limited number of players. As far as I can tell it tries to average out the skill level. While this in theory works as the team with less players has more resources individually, attention itself is a resource that you don't get more of. I think that generally the smaller team should get an advantage.

For example, if you have a blue, yellow and red in the lobby, it will tend to chuck the orange and blue against the yellow - the blue team should win this every time. Blue probably still wins if it's orange and yellow vs blue, but I think it would generally be closer.

I'm not certain how better players affect this. It may depend whether they are just generally solid, or whether they are the type that win games by themselves. I feel like purple players can probably actually take advantage of the extra resources properly.

I think the fix might just be to give the bigger team a slight elo handicap?
+2 / -0
I actively disbelieve that the current handling of uneven teams by the balancer is correct.

[Spoiler]

That having been said, I believe that any change to the balancer system is going to need to be backed up by concrete statistics. The effect which uneven teams has on any particular game is strongly influenced by the team sizes and the map, so personal preferences on those points are liable to bias anecdotal evidence quite a bit.

In the past I think there have been datasets floating around which somebody could do those statistics on. I think the only place that the rating of each player at the time the game was played is available is within the replay files themselves, so some amount of replay crawling would be required to reproduce such a dataset.

edit: this thread is quite old and i feel like there are more recent ones, but a place to start looking: https://zero-k.info/Forum/Thread/22898

this thread doesnt have data, but just to say we've been here before: https://zero-k.info/Forum/Thread/36816
+3 / -0
20 days ago
A nice analysis (2 years old) using numerical analysis can be found here: https://zero-k.info/Forum/Thread/36555

It computes also a range of elo difference for which things should be more honest.

As far as I remember the analysis linked above has a complete re-implementation of WHR as well (based on all the games played), so it can regenerate the ratings.
+1 / -0
20 days ago
Aqua if anyone has a way to do that it would be ideal, but in lieu of that...

I think anecdotal evidence is actually enough here. If you use the !predict function on a 1v2, 2v3, and sometimes even a 3v4 game, it's often pretty obvious who will win and often I think I could create better teams than the balancer.

I'm pretty happy with how the balancer works for even player counts.
+0 / -0
20 days ago
For example, right now the predict feature is telling me that myself and a red player have a 13.5% chance of winning against a yellow - I don't believe that figure is even remotely close to accurate.
+0 / -0
20 days ago
quote:
For example, right now the predict feature is telling me that myself and a red player have a 13.5% chance of winning against a yellow - I don't believe that figure is even remotely close to accurate.


I have seen red players that do not do anything useful (as in only storage and start a detri), so can't say how close is. I think the gold is at a disadvantage (due to the blue), but it could win some games. If it is 1 in 7 (as suggested) or 3 in 10, that really depends on how red is the red.

On the other hand, I would ask, what would you hope for the case of these 3 players? The statistical analysis I posted proposes balancer improvements when alternative solution exists. For the 3 players case that you gave as an example I do not think there is any better balancing solution.
+0 / -0
The biggest counterargument to attention favoring the larger team, is the ease of which a lone player can coordinate his forces and efforts.

Take for example a Thunderbird strike followed up by raiders.
Without voicechat, it is much easier for a skilled player to coordinate a strike or abort depending on the situation, which can change in just a few seconds, but which might also have to be premediated up to several minutes of planning, positioning and unit compositions.
However, countering enemy bombers with Swifts requires almost constant attention to the movement of the enemy air forces and ground AA, and are best done by a dedicated air player.

For a low skilled player, just coordinating two different forces can be hard enough that it is better done by several players.

Controlling a single group of Scythes behind enemy frontlines requires almost constant attention to not run into enemies and accidentally uncloak.

Some other examples that favors of Ease of Coordination over abundant Attention, is to control a single Grizzly or Paladin with some backup, than it is for several people to counter them.

So Attention versus Ease of Coordination depends largely on what type of map and unit compositions that the players go for.

Some types of Coordination require quick decision making, like a Thunderbird strike, while other types of coordination, like switching all your production to counter an enemy threat, is slower, but convincing your allies to realize the threat and stopping their own production, can be a hard sell in a random teamgame, making even long term coordination processes slow and difficult.
+1 / -0
quote:
I think anecdotal evidence is actually enough here. If you use the !predict function on a 1v2, 2v3, and sometimes even a 3v4 game, it's often pretty obvious who will win and often I think I could create better teams than the balancer.

Remember that what needs to be achieved here is not "figure out better teams/odds than the balancer does in a single game", it is "write down a bunch of equations with numbers in them to instruct the balancer for all games, with no further human intervention".

quote:
The biggest counterargument to attention favoring the larger team, is the ease of which a lone player can coordinate his forces and efforts.

There are situations and maps and teams where the advantage can run either way. This is why I think some serious statistics are required to determine the average.

It seems as though https://zero-k.info/Forum/Thread/36555 contains most of what would be required.
+2 / -0
14 days ago
Aqua I think step 1 of working out where the matchmaker isn't working needs to be done before step 2. Once you know how it's not working, the maths more naturally follows. - ie., I think come up with a bunch of scenarios where it doesn't work, analyse why, and then work from there.

Godde I agree, however, I think this advantage really only applies to blue players and up, and particularly to purple players. Purple will make good use of that and base strategies around it - ie., being able to coordinate two coms is quite powerful, but I don't think yellow and below have a chance of this.

The 2v1 strategy is clearest to me.

2 silver + Blue, it will stick silver vs blue and silver - it definitely should stick blue against two silver.

If there's more of a skill gap between players I think it's more complicated and I think you can't get fair teams in some situations.

Blue, silver, and red, it will stick blue and red against silver - I think this is fair in this situation.
+0 / -0
14 days ago
AUrankStuey72727 the ideas can look good, but you actually need the exact maths due to how colors work.

You are aware maybe that a silver player can have higher rating than a blue player (check ladder around position 100; reason: "In order to change rank in either direction, a player's rating has to surpass a 20% threshold into the next rank." source: "Show rating statistics" on your player page).

So it is not about colors but about actual numbers and what to do with them. From my perspective the thread I linked performed all the effort (gather data, compute ratings, compute averages, make hypothesis, test them, etc.) and came with a conclusion that is applicable immediately.

Probably it is not enough, and we could do specific analysis for number of players, like 3 player games, 5 player games, etc. But then we need actual work - are there enough games like that to draw a conclusion? What is the actual value? Implement it in the server. Etc.

For me the sad part is that we have an improvement to what we have (proposed in the thread) and nobody implemented it for 2 years. I understand that everybody has priorities, so I am happy with what we have, this is not a critic. But personally I try just avoid unbalanced games by specing. Not ideal but that's life.
+0 / -0

13 days ago
IMO uneven teams 3v4 or smaller should be no-elo'd by default.

A lot of elo changes hands in odd ways in those games but they mostly come down to how well a specific player can multifac.
+2 / -0