People lowering the tone of the game

I think that this is a problem. While I have never seen this in 1v1 it is almost inevitable in 6v6 and above, which is what newbies will play most. The following is a discussion between GoogleFrog and Forb in #evo:

[08:15] GoogleFrog the problem with gaining a community is the people
[08:40] [Evo]Forboding_Angel Yeah
[08:40] [Evo]Forboding_Angel and if you have few people, that community is shit to begin with
[08:40] [Evo]Forboding_Angel spring seems to end up with the dregs
[08:40] [Evo]Forboding_Angel Not all
[08:41] [Evo]Forboding_Angel but it;s kinda the principle of a few bad apples shitting on the rest.
[09:31] GoogleFrog how long do game communities hang around commercial games?
[09:32] GoogleFrog with old communities you get the troll effect
[09:32] GoogleFrog every community has a tone which is the behaviour of the average community member (simplified but take an example)
[09:32] GoogleFrog and there are soft and 'hard' players
[09:32] GoogleFrog hard players could bring the tone down
[09:33] GoogleFrog soft players will leave the community if the tone lowers too far
[09:33] GoogleFrog and if left unchecked the tone will slowly decrease as the hard players are the only remaining ones
[09:33] GoogleFrog so communities harden (wow I did not plan this analogy in advance but it worked!) over time and become more difficult for players to enter
[09:33] GoogleFrog unless this process is actively fought with moderation and standards
[09:34] [Evo]Forboding_Angel The soft players are the ones you want to keep around though
[09:34] [Evo]Forboding_Angel yes agreed
[09:34] [Evo]Forboding_Angel and good analogy :-)
[09:34] GoogleFrog hard players can be decent people
[09:34] GoogleFrog but they can also be trolls
[09:35] GoogleFrog and are more likely to ignore trolls because they can deal with it, they're not really affected
[09:35] GoogleFrog so while not trolling they tend to let it happen and thus contribute to the tone
[09:39] [Evo]Forboding_Angel Yeah
[09:39] [Evo]Forboding_Angel That's a surprisingly accurate assessment
[09:44] GoogleFrog basically everyone you know through spring is probably one such 'hard' person
[09:51] [Evo]Forboding_Angel That I disagree with. Maybe now
[09:51] [Evo]Forboding_Angel though
[09:51] [Evo]Forboding_Angel so yeah technically true
[09:51] [Evo]Forboding_Angel meh
[10:01] GoogleFrog ok, they may not be hard but if they are still fairly active currently the chance of them being so increases

There is more, but this is the relevant bit. Apparently in the games Forb has been doing every Sunday for a while 2 people have been causing an unreasonable amount of trouble, one of them Skasi and the other someone i cant remember now. I will not repeat what he said about Skasi. I think that this also applies to ZK and it is losing us players. Could something be done about it?

Yeah, while playing Evo I told Forb that the chat font was very small, that selection circle around units were too bright and that I had trouble telling units apart because all units of a certain movement-type share the same radar icon (ie all kbots use 1 icon, all vehicles use 1 icon, etc.). That's really the definition of "causing an unreasonable amount of trouble". (Chatlog)

Anyway, even though he didn't say so, Forb must have appreciated my feedback. It was forwarded to smoth, who apparently does graphics.

My guess is the other player he complained about was Anarchid or CarRepairer. They made suggestions on how to improve the game too. I think someone once told me Forb was arrogant or so. Can't find it in the logs though, so no idea who it was. :(

quote: Aside from flat out raging and insulting newbs

I really mean this. The admins appear to do very little about it even though it is seen all the time. Perhaps this will shed more light on it:

[07:33] [Evo]Forboding_Angel but it coems down to the principle of the thing
[07:33] [Evo]Forboding_Angel I go to quite a bit of trouble to try to make these fun and stream and everything else
[07:33] [Evo]Forboding_Angel It's not as if it's effortless
[07:33] [Evo]Forboding_Angel I don't expect people to worship me for that, but a little dignity and respect in chat would be nice
[07:34] [Evo]Forboding_Angel and calling people "Fags" on my stream is not somehting I am willing to tolerate
[07:34] [Evo]Forboding_Angel Among other stupid spring shit
[07:34] [Evo]Forboding_Angel Heh
[07:34] [Evo]Forboding_Angel last week I'm sitting ehre casting a game
[07:35] [Evo]Forboding_Angel and in chat, "fag" and many other choice shit I would rather not be broadcasting is showing up
[07:35] [Evo]Forboding_Angel that's fucking embarrassing
[07:36] [Evo]Forboding_Angel So yeah
[07:36] [Evo]Forboding_Angel I mean, maybe it's my fault for being too lenient
[07:36] [Evo]Forboding_Angel but dude
[07:36] [Evo]Forboding_Angel my 11 yr old nephew watches my stream
[07:36] [Evo]Forboding_Angel as well as some of his other little friends
[07:37] [Evo]Forboding_Angel It simply isn't cool
[07:37] [Evo]Forboding_Angel I won't even let him join this lobby because of the shit that goes on here
[07:37] [Evo]Forboding_Angel The last thing I need is someone being a fucking dick and trolling my nephew who knows no better

Perhaps lower the tone was not the best phrase to use. I guess I really mean that people could do to be a bit more considerate and less offensive towards everyone they perceive to be doing something wrong.

Skasi It was not CarRepairer or Anarchid, it was someone who sounded like a BA player who I have never heard of.

EDIT: A good example, in the thread about removing targeting restrictions paShadoWn said

quote: You nabface should have been playing CoD4 campaign years ago where they dunk a tank with a Javelin.

That is what I mean about lowering th tone.

You're completely missing the point pashadown. You don't need to justify your derogatory remarks, nor does anyone really expect an apology. The request is to tone (no pun intended) it down, just think about if you'd say that comment to people in real life that sit in front of you.

This is not a pub. We're not entertained by you bashing everybody in a condescending manner. I'm not in a place to warn you but just consider the existence of this topic a shot across the bow.

quote: Also funny to read complaints about bad language/behaviour but then see him use "fuck" and "shit" in the same chatlog.

...and then especially worrying about the language his nephews might use. Lol.

I'm on the fence about addressing undirected foul language (a random "dammit" or "oh, shit" at the situation in general and no one in particular), but directly attacking a player is definitely a problem. Obviously something where context is important, since things can get heated, but in general motivation from moderation policy to take the high ground in heated situations would be most beneficial overall. It's important that this is clear, though from what I've seen the current moderation policy is like this, so that's halfway there, I suppose.

On the other hand, encouraging good sportspersonship and etiquette in games by example is also important. I've found 1v1 is generally a polite and sporting environment, but team games sound like the big problem. How often do people in team games point out the good things other players did, especially the good things the other team did? I think that alone would improve the atmosphere in team games a great deal, though I understand it's very hard to do in the heat of the moment after a match, especially after losing.

I sincerely hope you never even get close to having political influence. People like you are the reason for wars in real life. You know.

paShadoWn: Were Zero-K a strategic and tactical command training simulation in use by real world militaries, I would be inclined to agree with your points in general and would understand your point here. However, it is not. It's a leisure activity for people in their spare time who could be doing many other things. Ideally, as many people as possible would be choosing Zero-K over those other options, which is why making sure it is enjoyable in general and designed as a fun game (rather than a realistic simulation when the two goals conflict) is a priority. Similarly, ensuring the community is encouraged to behave civilly and politely, rather than barbarians on a pub crawl, is a priority.

If people are training to play this competitively, either for tournaments or clan matches, then I completely understand your attitude, and mostly agree with it as far as coaching one's own team goes. Encouraging and rewarding outstanding performance is still a morale boost, though, so constant negativity isn't exactly perfect. However, most people aren't playing this competitively, and that's both fine and a good reason to try to keep the community polite and civil. The more players there are, the more competitive players there are, so it works out.

Also, by your logic:

quote: An excellent example to what praise leads is shown in 300: to DEATH.

one would want to praise the opposing team, if it leads to their downfall and your victory.

When I'm playing games with my friends there's nothing more fun than trash talk. But the last thing I want to hear from some online jerk whom I've never met is a bunch of insults.

We have rules here. Angry language that is not obscene is tolerated. But you may not direct it at anyone. If you want to play like that, start a private battleroom with your buddies. Nothing wrong with that.