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Default zero k widget and setup not user friendly at all

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Yes I'm aware you've put a great deal of thought into it - but that doesn't change the fact that when I look at it I have to think every time about what it means, rather than just knowing. It simply doesn't click with me.

Perhaps the new one is an improvement for new players. My opinion on that subject is largely irrelevant. A survey of new players might be appropriate.

quote:
EDIT: However, I do agree that there are a lot of numbers. The most l can pare it down to without losing information that I have used for decision making is...

As far as I can see, it contains exactly the same numbers as the default resource bar.
+1 / -0
I'm not keen to discuss this stuff again, but
quote:
Direct feedback on actions in UI is key to getting new users accustomed to a system

[color=ff4466]...what's better than that is something a new user can understand without taking any actions[/color]. The default bar has that. It is very very obvious what part of it is spending, what part is income and what is your current storage. And yes, yours has that too, but it has more visual noise.

I'd argue that the amount of information presented to a new user is not as important as long as he can intuitively tell what means what and where he can find a certain element.

Although I still can't quite put my finger on what makes the default bar much more intuitive than yours. I'll keep thinking about it.
+1 / -0
9 years ago
even if you shouldn't have to, it's better to have the option to re-arrange if you want to.
+0 / -0
Keep in mind that "you can change it however you want to" is an argument than does not apply to newbies.

90% Newbies will always assume the default arrangement is the de-facto arrangement, because that is how every other RTS game works.

90% of that 90% will never bother to complain on the forums; they will tolerate it until they adapt or decide they hate the game. The remaining 10% will complain on the forums and learn how to change it.

50% of the previous 10% will never use what they learn because they've gotten used to the default layout, irregardless of if they like it or not.

[Spoiler]

Two rules dominate for-profit game development:

First Impressions Matter

Your target audience is the silent majority

This is entirely why much of the beta-testing phase of games is in polishing the in-game UI and main menu interfaces to be instantly sensible and recognizable, and why so much marketing is done using tired cliches and excessively flashy bits of not-true-to-95%-of-gameplay action scenes.

The silent majority never advertise their taste, only the raw data of sales and player activity can communicate those facts. Aspiring game developers who want their game to be popular pay attention to the data trends discovered and shared by bigger gaming companies, in order to better tweak their game for the best possible first impression on game-start-up and in game trailers.

[Spoiler]
+5 / -0
GBrankPrincey your UI preference makes no sense to me. The screenshots of your preferred setup has windows poking out of odd locations. The result is that you view the play area through a very irregular shape. I think many people agree that the UI should be blocked into a few chunks with reasonably straight edges in order to give a more unobstructed view of the play area.

In short the main complain of GBrankPrincey seems to be "the view of the play area is too rectangular". This seems to be the case except Princey likes Skasi's UI but not the default one. As far as I can tell the only significant difference between the two is the skin.

I have talked to GBrank[Fx]Drone about this before. There may be good ideas hiding somewhere in his head but he is too busy being an asshole to let them out. As far as I can recall I do not disagree with his actual point (it took a lot of listening to random trolling to piece together what it was). It seems to me that GBrank[Fx]Drone cares a lot about the skinning of the UI. I am not sure where this statement comes from
quote:
Even more sad that the visual issues aren't even that hard to fix but the only person who seems to want to do any graphical work is Googlefrog and he always goes over the top with the cheesy photoshop fx (just look at the amount of times bevel is used in Princey's picture), I even saw one reddit post which made exact same comment.
because I have done no graphical (skinning) work on the UI. The UI has a skinning system and some time ago some people created a few skins. I hear it is quite easy to make a skin if you know what you want and are graphically inclined. I know Drone won't because he only cares just enough with whinge but someone else may do so. Here are the current skins.

Current skin. I prefer it to the others for its unobtrusiveness and lack of technical issues.

Similar to the previous skin. Its main faults are a larger gap between elements and no consistency in what is bordered teal or white.

Weird font and large button spacings due to the overly complicated borders around elements.

This one is ok but the strange shaped buttons mess up the hotkey indicators. If this one is liked perhaps the hotkeys or button orientation could be changed.

Similar to the last one but without angled buttons. The teal angles on the command area may be visually confusing. This may be better than the default skin and I have no strong opinion.

My main gripe with all of these UIs is that there is a gap between the panels and the edge of the screen. I don't really mind whether buttons are rounded or not or have other special effects all over them.

On some general things:
  • Deluxe playerlist is not enabled because new player do not need all that information. Also it is too large and rigid to work on smaller screens.
  • The aim of the new resource panel is to be easier to understand than the old one. Making it an option would defeat the purpose of it. Instead improve the panel.
  • I don't see why you would want your chat in the middle of the screen.
  • Arguments from "you can configure it so it is fine" are only valid when a poweruser comes along and tells me that the UI is not complicated enough for them. For example someone might like facpanel and I would say that they can use it if they want to but new players do not need to extra confusion.

CArankAdminShadowfury333 you were not forced to put a balance bar on the widget. As I saw it the balance bar was an idea that was discussed and refined, not some criteria for inclusion. I was not aware that you disliked the balance bar that much.

The resource display is a difficult subproblem of the UI. I am not sure that the old resource bars are as intuitive as people make them out to be because everyone here probably has some unnoticed ingrained understanding of the resource bar. What does a bar mean to people? Is it something you try to fill? Actually you don't mind if the energy bar fills but really do not want the metal bar to fill and once it starts flashing it is too late. I do not think the 6 numbers packed to the left of the resource bar are easy to understand.

If we were Starcraft II we would just give players a display that read "Metal: 32/500 Energy 400/500" and it would be quite easy to read. Unfortunately that display has almost no useful information. In general resource displays in RTS are quite underdeveloped, almost all of them just give a number for how much of something you have and expect the user to figure out their income and that it is bad for the number to go up.

I agree with everything USrankAutoWar said.
+5 / -0
quote:
I do not think the 6 numbers packed to the left of the resource bar are easy to understand.

As far as I know the same six numbers are in Shadowfury's resource display, just oriented differently. Can you explain what you mean by "easy to understand"? I find personally that having all the numbers in one place, and with no other visual noise around, is quite clear.
+0 / -0


9 years ago
They are all put in the same place with no explanation. At least the resource panel numbers have "NET" written over the net number and the income number towards the top of the bar while the expense is at the bottom. It also highlights that you should be paying attention to what your incomes are doing with respect to each other.
+0 / -0


9 years ago
That second skin (Twilight) has inconsistent border colors because people keep overriding the skin color in the window settings.

On the other hand it also has button highlighting issues that I've never been quite able to solve. Since I just use square DarkHive anyway these days, we could drop it from the menu along with Robocracy (#3).
+0 / -0
Having the chat at the bottom of my widescreen is just painful to my eyes. I focus on the middle of the screen and I have to move my eyes at least half a inch downwards just to read the chat.

The interface takes up 2 much space. I shortern the interface and the info box I'm still half/half in regard to it being where it is now even if I cut its size in half due to personal taste.

My biggest gripe was the chatbar/size and chunkiness of the GUI. The resource bar is something a player needs to spend time with to understand which I find is bad because they come and play for the first time and they be like "wtf??" why so many numbers or something. It kinda like needing unnecessary amount of numbers for the sake of being there....also the visual bar in the background is kinda like confusing because it like make energy/make worker and i was like wtf you want me to make a worker at the start when I have no energy so it kinda confusing on that part cause it only gives direct feedback in that sense and it could hurt a new player in the long run because it either says A. make worker. B. make energy which is not the case 90% of the time. You should pump the troops out faster or invest say 20% of your income back into your economy, but generally the idea is to get as much troops and metal as possible.

I personally just think the panel will just confuse the player in the long run more.

Instead I would go for a visual representation of overdrive next to income. I would then just have some warning signs flash when the player is either A. energy stalling or B. MAXED on metal. I would just say something like "Warning" Metal cap reached" Please "free up space"

Anyway I think some info boxes would be more helpful or a video that pops up when you press on a question mark would be 10 times more helpful then some random numbers and a bar that the player has no idea about and has to spend time to understand as he it has the entire system basic and advanced side of it on the panel..

Not to mention. I don't see any reason needing those numbers and visual stuff when you actually already understand the system.
+0 / -0
The difference between my economy UI and the old economy UI is how much space every element gets. In the old UI, storage bars got at least 75% of the space by default, and increased in size when the window was scaled, while the gross numbers were all 12pt font and net was 19pt. In my UI, the bars get about 8% of the width each, while the gross income and spending (i.e. the numbers that should be made big, because people want to make numbers big (source: every MMO ever)) are in 21pt & 19pt font by default respectively.

The income and spending numbers should be the point of focus, as they are what the player can control and how their economy truly works. Storage just tells the player how much time they have to spend beyond their means. To contrast, In RTS games that use discrete spending, knowing the stored resource count is key, as it must be greater than the cost of the desired object. In RTS games that use gradual spending, but don't allow spending when storage is at 0 (C&C games, Homeworld Games, Petroglyph's games), the storage tells the player how long they have to spend resources at all. With TA-style games, it is a minor element, marking the point when income truly becomes a limiter to spending, but not limiting spending itself. Overall, though, income is the limiter to spending in TA-style games, not storage.

GBrankTheEloIsALie: What the player sees happen passively with storages increasing is, as usual with resource storage in RTS games, making the wrong behaviour (hoarding resources) look right. People want to make numbers big, so making the numbers that should be big super obvious seems like a simple way to get people to intuitively do the right thing.

AUrankAdminGoogleFrog: my issue with the balance bar is that it basically becomes a distracting point of focus (just look at all the discussion that occurred in the widget thread brainstorming ideas to overcomplicate it), and the design involves mirroring the resource numbers, which may contribute to the noise issues. It makes it look like 8 numbers for everything rather than 4 numbers for each resource (though, as I said, could theoretically be 2 per resource + 2 for gross metal income & spending, as that is an important bottleneck).

I suppose I should have made my displeasure clear sooner, but honestly I was more okay with it at first, and I have no problem with the idea it conveys, but after that FPVOD set I played with you, after which you pointed out that in the early game energy should have lower income than metal, I've had a hard time seeing it as useful, considering the noise it adds.
+0 / -0
9 years ago

That's my UI. Personally I cant stand the default one, but noob-friendlyness is paramount for things like UI. The 2 things I think need to be changed in the default are the player list (should be deluxe, crude doesn't tell you enough) and alwaysDrawQueue=1 in cmdcolors.txt. The lack of order display by default is confusing and makes micro harder than it needs to be.
+1 / -0


9 years ago
From earlier:
quote:
Deluxe playerlist is not enabled because new player do not need all that information. Also it is too large and rigid to work on smaller screens.

Also it is written poorly.

quote:
alwaysDrawQueue=1 in cmdcolors.txt

There is a widget which handles this instead of cmdcolors.txt. Enabling show all commands was an argument I had long ago and lost. The theory is that most people prefer not to see what their units are doing because it might be ugly.

CArankAdminShadowfury333 having more metal income than energy at the very start of the game is a small efficiency thing that I would not attempt to teach people at first. I still find the balance bar useful even though I do this. Perhaps we need another resource display thread? I can't think of any resource displays in any other RTS which I would say are particularly good.
+0 / -0
Skasi
9 years ago
Talking about alwaysDrawQueue, how about making the always drawn lines very low on opacity like 0.1 to 0.2 (current default is 0.7)?
+0 / -0


9 years ago
Drawing them when shift is pressed and for selected units seems like a decent compromise imo. It should be default, if it is not already.
+3 / -0
Skasi
9 years ago
Soo what about 0.2 when nothing is selected, 0.4 when shift is held or for selected units and the default 0.7 for selected+shift like we have now? :P
+0 / -0

This one is mine. I made it so it would look sophisticated, clean while showing me the actuall battlefield. It aims to have everything unit releated in left bottom corner of the screen and rest divided between corners. Chat is placed on middle top to not clutter middle of my screen (as it is a problem with many of your setups).

In my opinion the deflaut HUD setup must be as close to the HUDs of other TA like games wich are: TA, Supreme Commander, BA, PA.This is basicly our main target audience thus we should make the HUD alike (i mean possitioning).
Therefore for example the recource bar (in this case our superb economy panel) should go to right hand corner. Minimap should go to left top corner and so on. I think that my setup is close enough but it will try to reasemble it even more and post up a result.
+1 / -0

9 years ago
I prefer not to see 100 lines on my screen. the lines are not needed. I use fight command alot and tend to micro certain units and i usually queue commands.
+1 / -0


9 years ago
One thing this thread made me realize is that the new chili docking means i'll actually have to fix the counter.
+1 / -0
Skasi
9 years ago
quote:
I use fight command alot and tend to micro certain units and i usually queue commands.

Don't we all?
+2 / -0
9 years ago
Best is to allow player to choose to familiar setups on first time run something like: looks like dota; looks like starcraft something;

Personally I dont think current default is bad, yet obviously I have customized everything.
+1 / -1
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