I think the cudgel/hermit would benefit from some love, its the worst of the assaults atm. While one of the assaults obvs has to be the worst, it seems unfair it should be the spider's assault because the spider factory already contains so few units.
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I'm assuming spider doesn't have an awesome assault like cloaky because it would be a bit ridiculous with AT.
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Well it does climb hills and shoot a weapon that gains range with hill climbing. I don't see what it could be given.
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Venoms stun enemies. If we could give Hermit a better burst, it would kill a stunned unit faster and allow venom to retarget faster (until you got recluses). How about radar jammers? That fits into assaults, and spiders are most likely hidden behind hills anyway.
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No, this unit is brutally strong. I often field nothing but cudgel/flea until i hit Crabe's, especially on flatter maps- skipping venom/recluse entirely. Even if you are forced into using Venom's by too many raiders before you can field a Crabe, Cudgels become perfectly accurate when Venom's are EMP'd and have more than enough DPS to finish off raiders that would otherwise dodge their shots. On maps like Altored and all the DSD clones, cudgels can just march up an unexpected hill, and even if the enemy plants defenders and LLT's everywhere, they'll have to cover their whole perimeter to be safe. The ability to always hit the weakest part of an enemies defense makes Cudgel the -best- assault unit on these maps. There are huge gaps in the Spider lineup though, which are because of what Shazzeh said- Such a unit (A beefy raider, a high DPS unit, artillery, etc) would be absurd with AT. I honestly think Spider factory could afford a few non-AT units to fill these roles out on flat ground (like it used to have Zipper and Zeus when it was Arm t2).
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brutally strong? its the weakest assault, mitigated only by the way it gains range when firing from a high elevation, which is map dependent, situational, and in many situations equally exploitable by the thug (most the map-pool is full of maps with flat topped hills and teirs), which have greater resilience and regen. if you guys all disagree I must be wrong, but I think its poo that the cudgel is weak. In most uphill assaulting situations jack is already infinitely superior..
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Cudgel is good in its situational vein. On maps where you capitalize on attacking from cliffs, the cudgel is fierce. On maps where you're using spiders just for the sake of their good stun/skirm game and you're not emphasizing their terrain abilities, the cudgel is only minimally useful (they help pick off stunned raiders that would be overkilled by the full Recluse volley, I find). Personally I'd like to see the Cudgel split into two units - one as pure assault, and one as a sort of assault/skirm/raid middle-of-the-road unit. Then give one of them (the assault, maybe?) a capture-beam.
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Untill you engage jacks - which pwn Crabes. 100 real dps for crabes cost and 6800 HP each - easy to retreat. Rackeeters work very well against Crabe - 2spys or 1-2 skuttles too. Hammers counter it with 120 dps for crabes cost. Only light vehicles have no real counter to it.
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Regardless of the Cudgel, i'd like to fill the role of the beefy raider unit with a capture spider. It wouldn't work against most things that can fight back, but can capture cons and mexes, and you can use it with a venom to capture LLT's and enemy raiders. Later on, you can use it with spies to capture big stuff. Probably use the Burrow mechanic, so you can capture stuff and then burrow it while you use the captured units. You can also plant it in the back of an enemy base early to capture something important (e etc) later on. Might overlap a bit with flea though.
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I find it awesome that spider factory has such huge gaps in its unit roles. I think more factories could use some of this as well, since it's way more interesting when factories have weaknesses. A clever player can then combine multiple factories to circumvent these.
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i agree with Antero, if anything, ZK needs less units and more combined factory play. on topic: arent spiders to be used as a support lab anyway and only to be used when the map allows it? In my experience cudgels are ok. Very spammable low dps and big stack of HP, and dont forget the best looks in the ZK universe. :P
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Exactly. Especially for the Spider factory, where a fully-effective assault or an effective raider would be horrifying. Being assaulted and raided from "safe" sources is brutally frustrating. That said, I'd still love to see the Dominatrix unit moved to the Spider-factory, and have it fill an assault/raider role instead of a skirmisher so you have to get the cap-unit in close, vulnerable range in order to nab somebody. There's always been talk of removing the Hammer from the Cloaky lab for similar reasons. Before I found out they'd already half-specced out the amphib lab, my big fantasy was to move the Hammer into the Shieldbot labs as a Skirm, then move the Rogue and the Dirtbag (dirtbag is a little redundant with the Thug since they both provide screening for Skirmishers) into the new Amphib lab.
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The cudgel is... Meh. Due to it's health, it's only good for attack-moving.
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Cudgel is awesome unit considering its all terrain. Do you know it beats ravagers per cost in real situations? It can evade faster and can concentrate more firewpoer in smalelr area. Spider assault MUST be weaker than flat-only units.
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suggestion: how about reducing the weight of the cudgel to something closer to 120m? that would differentiate it from the thug a little more, give the spider lab a mass produceable fighter (which they very much lack) and mean more cudgels on the field. it was also make the spider lab unique in that they have the cheapest, lightest assault unit.
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Isn't it already the cheapest, lightest assault unit? Either way, I pretty much go 1/1/1 Venom/Hermit/Recluse when I roll spiders. Hermits out front to draw fire, Venoms to take the target down, Recluse to deal the damage. The gun on the Hermit is depressing - neither accurate nor powerful... but I use it anyways since it's a cheap way to draw fire away from its squishier brothers.
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I agree with that setup Pxtl, makes for a good mix, especially when dealing with minor porc lines which would chew up scouting venoms. I will also say the Venom+Hermit combo is very useful as a EMPed units aren't hard to hit at all :P
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I don't get why people say cudgel is the worst assault. It has good hp, good speed, good weapon range and is cheap enough to be spammed. It also has its niche - it is definitely the best assault in large open maps with cliffs, such as Throne or Albion_v1. On maps like that you get big eco and need big areas to cover and this is where cudgel shows its power. Especially because it can cross the cliffs like it was flat terrain. Other units don't work that well, for example: * Jack - is too slow, too easily killed when catched in the open, can't cover large areas, and needs too much micro * Crabe - again too slow and needs too much micro, can damage allied units if not used properly, also too expensive and prone to be killed by anti-heavy units All other units either can't handle cliffs well or can't handle porc well. For fighting mobile units you just add some venom to your cudgel spam, or use infiltrators when fighting heavy stuff.
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just give it a laser would looks cooler
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karacho, it's the only spider with a weapon that gets a boost from high elevation. I'd hate to see that aspect of it removed by giving it a spherical-targeted laser.
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