Balance

There is no elo balancing system who can balance game if one of players starts building 5 factory and useless units even didnt knowing who to play. I think that we could solve many problem if devs remove universal 'All welome room' rules splitting it in two rooms. One is for players who have >1300 elo and other is for <1300 elo. And no universal room where can play any player. It also should be on small teams. FFA, 1vs1 and Coop vs AI should be withouth limits. Of course anybody can join in other rooms to spectate games.
It would solve:
1) Most balance problems when 0 level player start doing absolute useless things in game because player dont know game.
2) It make harder life for trollsmurfs who somethimes wreck balance.
3) It eliminate 'pro' player rages on newbies.
Of course it would not eliminate all problems but still its theroteical option. Also new players dont have cut option to laern because they can play private rooms with higher elo friends, play 1 vs 1, play Coop vs AI and play FFA.

quote: Splitting the rooms will segregate our already dwindling community further. It's already very difficult to get games now, it will be far more difficult if we stop filling in the numbers with high variance elos.

How about putting the game on steam where there is many gamers

What's not seen:

Elo isn't a measurement of skill. It's just a win ratio. So what happens when you force newbies to play with newbies? They don't magically acquire basic working knowledge of zero-k. Likely what will happen is they'll accidentally win a few rounds, then join your magical "X elo and above only" playground only to be screamed and yelled at by "veteran" players who seem to have never been taught "if you have nothing nice to say don't say it."

I'll compare this to my experience in other games with segregated skill areas. At first you feel like you're doing well (but you're not because you're just against random guess work). So you progress and eventually leave the magical newbie land and suddenly get squashed by everyone and their mother. Then you quit the game.

quote: 3) It eliminate 'pro' player rages on newbies.

I laugh at this comment. It doesn't eliminate it at all. Only way to eliminate that behavior is through modaction and peer pressure.

It's not the newbies who aren't pulling their weight or anything like that. It's your ego trying to rationalize that it's not your fault at all. So... here's my suggestion:

1.) Don't bitch about newbies and how everything is their fault and they're literally hitler, etc.
2.) Say gg afterwards, leave it at that. Don't gloat. Don't bad manner poor performers. If you want to comment on the game about anything, do not blame anyone, do not tell anyone their useless, etc. Praise good behaviors or don't speak at all. Follow the "If it's not nice, keep it to yourself" guideline.
3.) Don't comment on newbie's strategies/tactics. If they're doing something wrong, gently nudge them in the right direction. in fact, it might be better to ask people if they want advice about the game.
4.) Don't heckle newbies, don't harass them for not doing what you want. If they're unresponsive, don't bother them any more.
5.) If you don't like playing with newbies, don't play in the all welcome room. Just because you're above 1600 magical internet fake points does NOT give you the right to be bitching and pointing fingers like some elementary schooler.
6.) Don't chastise newbies for being new. They're gonna make mistakes. Live with it.
7.) Don't be labeling people as "lobsters","noobs",etc. You're just going to be making them feel unwelcomed and you're just degrading their performance because they feel like they're part of the out group.

REMEMBER: BALANCER TAKES NEWBIES BEING NEWBIES INTO CONSIDERATION. IT IS NOT THEIR FAULT AT ALL. ENEMY TEAM OUTPLAYED YOU IN THESE CIRCUMSTANCES. LEAVE IT AT THAT.

TL;DR: Suck it up and show some respect.

quote: To summarize: ◦ Don't bitch about losing because of newbies. Both teams have them. ◦ Don't bitch about playing with newbies. You can avoid them.

Lets summarize.
1)You never played game where joins one 1100 elo player in small teams and even dont play games where is many less then 1300 elo.
2) You really have infinite time to always avoid newbies in this limited comunity and you always can come play when you want? Right? Maybe you can reccomend me avoid to playing this game? Genious. No captain Obivious!
3) Seems that you didnt know how balance works because many games is balanced that two 2000 player get 5 1100 level 'newbies' and other team get average player rating 1700 +/-.

And how do you can correct games where newbie/low elo player joins then just left or resign and left game making total unbalance?
And did you notice that there is 'newbies' with 1200 elo but 40 - 100 level? And they playing each day?

Do you even really play this game? I didnt TALK about only newbies but players who have lower then 1300 elo. Its really isn't newbie who player 500 games and have 1250 elo.

I just came with an idea. Why not, instead of bashing newbies, make something to help them ingame?

I mean, (not very) simple witget turned on by default, but affecting only players with level less than something (10?)

The widget could in 1st place give usefull tips. I know we had sth like this before and it was annoying. To you. The pros with 9001 games played. Whenn I started playing zk I found this widget quite helpfull. Up to the point when it started being annoying. Hence the level limit.
But this new helping widget could also utilize some ai controll. E.g if a newb has idle con, it could automatically make the con produce solar flowers around mexess nearby, while notifying the player that it is doing it and why is it good. Then if newb clusters his units the AI could spread them automatically while again notifying that it is spreading the units because its bad to have clusters, and how newb can do it themself. And more!
Small things that will both teach a newcommer about game mechhanics and will make him less useless in a teamgame.

Some games will be ruined by people playing badly (be they newbies or not). Some of these games you will win, because they were on the other team. Some of these games you will lose, because they were on your team.

I believe this state of affairs is unavoidable (with the possible exception of 1v1).

None of these observations is particularly useful in the moment that you are playing a ruined game, but not all games are ruined.

A partial solution to this problem is indeed to fix the issues which would make a Steam release fail, and then make with the release. I promise you will still get some bad games though no matter what happens.

In the end, when faced with a single bad game, you just have to suck it up and hope the next one will be better (or perhaps take a break for a little while if Firepluk is having one of his moods, or the room is over-run with lobsters, or you're just tilted).

(As a related note which perhaps belongs more in the other balance thread, the difference between a 1900 and 1500 player is *not the same* as the difference between a 1500 and a 1100, or for that matter between a 1900 and a 2300. By comparison, the 1900-1500 difference is more compareable to a 1800-1400 difference, or 1900-1800 to 1800-1700. The fact that the elo-average-team-balance system as it stands treats the first two gaps in the same way is, I believe, a critical flaw.)

quote: Why should i need respect newbie or low elo high level player who do not respect me? When i start to play i listened what others telling me so i got no rage because me.

You seem to confuse the concept of RESPECT with OBEDIENCE. Obedience comes from authority/fear. Respect comes from giving respect and is a basic social skill. Preemptively disrespecting people because they don't listen to your opinion on how to play a video game? That's totally immature and childish. It's a game. You're going to have bad games and you're going to have good games. Say good game, move on. Not hard. If you're unwilling to give people basic respect, you deserve to end up ignored and muted. Be nice, play nice, or modaction will occur against you.

quote: However speakers in 'gold tongue' didn't mentioned what to do with newbies who didn't cooperate and there is many of them.

Play with them and respect them like human beings and stop treating them like trash OR DON'T PLAY WITH THEM. Respect their right to play unharassed and unheckled or you'll be muted.

quote: And i will continue blame 'newbies and low elo player factor' about unbalance in teams.

And this will be you if you continue your disrespectful behavior. Oh the irony.


Nobody wants to be blamed for everyone's loss. The only person at fault is the team itself. Leave it at "Other team was better than us." and say gg.

/rant.

quote: New players do magically acquire knowledge of Zero-K while playing the game.

No they don't. They don't instantly know everything about zero-k. They learn through mistakes and social learning (mostly from mistakes). This is not "magical" at all. This is normal. Magical is if I, having never played zero-k before, suddenly knew everything about zero-k with very little experience or reading.

quote: After new players win a few rounds their elo will increase

In other words, it's a win ratio. If it was not a win ratio, then it would be independent of win/loss and would be influenced by doing 'good' things in game. You can argue indirectly that it is a measurement of skill (need skill to win) but this notion falls apart when you have multiple agents working with you to win.

quote: In other words, it's a win ratio. If it was not a win ratio, then it would be independent of win/loss

No it's not. A player with a win:loss ratio of 5:50 can have higher elo than a player with 50:5 or even 55:0.

I'd say skill is the ability to summon the victory screen for your team. Nothing more, nothing less.

Elo shows quite accurately how well a player has performed at executing this task in the past.

However, I definitely agree with

quote: Do not instantly blame your low "elo" players for your loss.

A player with low Elo is not supposed to carry the game. That burden lies on the shoulders of the high Elo players in the team. If the team loses, it generally means the high Elo players failed to do their job.