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Scythe needs nerf/rebalance

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This shit is way too OP both in 1v1 and team games

1. Fast
2. High burst DPS
3. High HP
4. Fast re-cloak combined with fast unit speed makes adv. micro really scary - run away, cloak, turn 180 degree - wipe off chasing enemy
5. Relatively small decloak radius - makes it easy to sneak in behind enemy main forces and backstab from unexpected direction
6. Low energy requirements which makes it very good at early game rushes(compare E requirements to a widow for example)
7. Very fast auto heal when not taking damage
8. Relatively low cost of 250m for all mentioned benefits

=> Due to all above it scales very well, 10 is almost x10 times better than 1 and even 1 is formidable at raiding weakly defended expansions.

Compared to THIS flea was a non existent problem. Unit needs a massive nerf/redesign

What would I do if we wanted to keep unit feeling the same?
Cost - 300m
increase E upkeep to forbid/delay early game scythe rush && mindless spam and make scythe upkeep growth tied to eco growth

[Spoiler]
+7 / -3
buff commanders?

no, the problem is that the cheap basic defenses are the wrong archetype to beat scythes (lotus), or have bad coverage (stardusts are easily obstructed and have short range).

I think if people make an early stinger besides the base lotus, then push with a decent mix of raiders, riots, etc. they should beat raiding based strategies that rely on scythes, pyros or tank raiders.

For expansion, make walls around the mexes to prevent them from being scythed.

the key is forcing the scythe user to engage your army.

defensive openings with a pair of riots for attacking can fail badly if they run into dominatrixes, though, but that's an issue with the dominatrix.

I think this also falls on the general ZK issue that agressive expansion+raiding right from the start is too effective compared to the other options. A way to work around this would be to increase base resource income, for example, from +4/+6 to +8/+12.


So yea, the "scythe" problem is something you can fix not by changing scythe, but by affecting the stuff that hard counters the scythe's counters too hard atm.
+4 / -0

5 months ago
We can use it to whack people in the head.
+1 / -0

5 months ago
A big problem is the regen. Only a kill punishes the scythe player.
+2 / -0
5 months ago
E upkeep 1 > 5 and its pretty much solved.
+2 / -0
5 months ago
Build a stinger in your base hahahahahahahahahh
+3 / -1
5 months ago
funny, isn't it?
+1 / -0

5 months ago
NLrankWesley
quote:
E upkeep 1 > 5 and its pretty much solved.


I seriously think this is a bit too much, i dont want to have more units getting a scuttle nerfhammer.
My suggestion would be 2E or max 3E upkeep which would still mean the "cost" increases from
-> 285m to 355m (instead of 425m which is pretty much insane)
+1 / -0
5 months ago
Im fine with any E upkeep increase tbh. I dont think scythe should have a place in the game before 5 minutes.
+3 / -0

5 months ago
2 Lotus will stop a Scythe for two thirds of its cost. They're also effective against nearly all other units. I'm unsure Scythe is actually OP.

Scythe is a very polarizing unit though. It has high weight, can only be engaged for 2-3 seconds after it attacked, and doesn't take any effective damage unless killed. Especially early on, this tends to snowball. I agree with PTrankraaar that ZK 1v1 is extremely susceptible to early game snowballing. Over time, as units have become more and more specialized, defenses have been nerfed and factory costs increased, this has only become worse. A bigger amount of starting resources or stronger defenses would certainly be a nice touch to keep the early game more balanced and allow games to progress further. ZK has so much more to offer than hectic raider play.
+6 / -0
CHrankAdminDeinFreund pls don't suggest us to stop scythes with lotus spam
Lotus can't move and harass - scythe can, u lost right there when u started spamming lotuses everywhere

I mean ok sure u make 2 LLT to stop 1 scythe near some key spots, scythe player sees it and brings 3 instead - in result all ur lotuses, solars and mexes are dead and before u even realised what happened scythes re-cloaked and ran away taking almost no casualties... so u rebuild and then it happens again and again and again(maybe in different place) and then u lose ^^
+2 / -0
stinger

defenses can't move and attack, but they can hold the "fort" while a slow but strong(er than raiders) attack force moves and attacks.
+0 / -0
5 months ago
I'd be okay with increasing the cost or energy upkeep but Scythes are really important for breaking up porc walls (good luck doing that with Slings) so please don't nerf their decloak/damage/regen.
+0 / -0

5 months ago
I'd make those llt even if the enemy didn't have scythes. Porc op.
+1 / -0


5 months ago
quote:
Im fine with any E upkeep increase tbh. I dont think scythe should have a place in the game before 5 minutes.

Ah, yes, let's just have Cloaky autolose to Amph because of not having a raider :P
+0 / -0

5 months ago
I didn't even realise Scythe had a cloak E cost. Shows how much I play cloak fac.

If you have a fac that can throw out cheap scouts they aren't quite so scary but you do have to play in paranoia mode for a long time when you're up against cloakbot (at least until you scatter some Faradays around to stun the whole pack when it shows itself). That'll certainly come at a cost in expansion.

Cloak is a massive perk that should be paid for though. 2E sounds reasonable and maybe slow down recloaking after an attack? Am I just imagining it from all the time spent chasing them futilely, or do they disappear faster than other cloak equipped stuff?
+0 / -0
How bad would it be if we added some kind of unit that reveals all cloaked units in some radius?...
fleas could be used before but now careful scythe user can reveal burrowed fleas with scythes and just avoid them
+1 / -0
5 months ago
Well, there's the Outlaw. :P
+1 / -0
5 months ago
give more power to the scyth ;D
+0 / -1


5 months ago
Outlaw is kind of meh for revealing scythes, there is eraser + circle guard combo with say glaives
This has more radius and is cloaked itself...
+0 / -0
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