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The Unreliable, The Juggle

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2 years ago
Its cool, its very different, its comical, its sad and broken.

Its costing me(and therefore often team with this current purple burden) games. As I use jumpsies like 80% of games.

Because sometimes juggle pulls, sometimes not, such a makes-no-sense lottery machine.

For example, flat ground, lvl 1 recon commander is not pulled with both rays firing(one, two, does it matter?):



Enemy lvl 1 recon commander in elevated position, with small elevated terrain between juggle and com also, and the commander is instantly and speedily pulled and even bounces up from the terrain.



Sometimes commanders even walk away while being pulled by juggle.

So? Can anything be done about juggle reliability?
+11 / -0
Jugglenaut is extremely strong when you understand how to get anything moving. Stationary objects require much more force to accelerate than already moving objects, due to friction. When there's angled surfaces at play, it's even harder. Commanders are massive, either bump into them or keep switching between push/pull to wiggle them from their static friction. Once they start sliding you can sling them around normally.
+3 / -0
It's less "static friction" and more the concept of Spring's "attachment to ground". I guess if you are shooting from below, throwing the unit "up" to break ground contact will cause detachment.

IMO: gravity beams should cause some minor impulse-less displacement even when detachment fails.
+0 / -0
i allways thought it was a bug,but as TinySpiders says switching from push to pull with 1 sec intervals can help,also jumping twords them
+0 / -0

2 years ago
this is just so broken.

quote:
switching between push/pull to wiggle them from their static friction. Once they start sliding you can sling them around normally.


sounds like a job for a wupget or even build-in if the friggin thing is beyond fixability in the first place.
+0 / -0
2 years ago
quote:
Stationary objects require much more force to accelerate than already moving objects, due to friction.

Is that implemented in Spring?

I personally have no idea, but if i'm not mistaken there is somewhat of a 'weight' value for units and commanders after upgrade get this number increased. So upgraded com with enough weight can just walk away, i guess. Someone should just test that in game.
Not a bug.
+0 / -0
2 years ago
gravity weapons could prehaps get stronger the longer their target is being shot at without being yeeted. that way, this attachment-to-ground force would still haave an effect, but it wouldn't be overpowering enough to make a 1700 metal unit useless.

There's also just the option to make juggle teleport it's targets a few elmos into the air, breaking the ground connection and thus the attachment-to-ground force.
+2 / -0
Allright I did some noobity noob testing. Commanders vs Jugglenaut, Titan duel, area terraformed to level.

Level 1 and 2 commander get pulled easily(still some randomness even on flat surface, sometimes good pull, sometimes very slow). On later levels it gets harder to pull. Yeah they get more mass with levels.

Inside 30% of max range juggle has the best pull power(because weapon is high, it can lift targets off ground??). Commander can stand still at max range and sometimes veeery slowly be pulled, takes minutes, and when inside that 30% range, they get speedy pull.

Outside of that 30% commanders can actually just walk away from juggle pull if they have move order to far away before juggle starts to pull, and they dont stop while being pulled. If they stop, they cant start moving again. Also if commander is moving towards juggle, they are more easily pulled. But again, outside that very close range, they can easily just stand still and not be affected by juggle on higher levels and mass.



In the picture, green lines are juggle max range and the about 30% range straight line. Guardian commander can walk away after the line, if already moving away. Level 46,(yeah cool, you can keep morphing even after all modules are installed) mass 4742.

Recon for some reason stops where it is and cant go further, but can walk up to that point while being pulled. Level 10, Mass 1111.

Engineer can also move away after the line, level 30 something, didnt check mass, maybe 3000? But in the picture, it is stuck where it is because too close to the juggle.

Inside the straight green line, they cant walk away.

Juggle weapon doesnt seem to tell what power it has? What mass it can pull?

Switching between pull and push as suggested, moving juggle around, moving commander around, it all is very random how and when the pull works.

Also tested with jack on level terrain, standing still, mass 422, sometimes instant good pull, sometimes no pull effect at all. Its all so chaotic. More like immobilize than pull/push.

But maybe juggle is doing its job as a riot? It pulls small stuff good and well. Like bandit has a mass 90, no problems. Then again juggle is supposed to work against crab on a spire? Crab has 480 mass. But there Ive seen many times crab unaffected, also walking away while pulled, but maybe thats the terrain screwing. But still, unreliable(because target has ground contact?).
+13 / -0
And also, different modules have different mass they they add to the com
+0 / -0

2 years ago
Just a reminder, mass = √(maxhp*metal cost). If that formula is wrong Cunningham's Law will correct it, just as it has made me say it in response to 'different modules add different mass'
+0 / -0


2 years ago
quote:
gravity weapons could prehaps get stronger the longer their target is being shot at without being yeeted. that way, this attachment-to-ground force would still haave an effect, but it wouldn't be overpowering enough to make a 1700 metal unit useless.

I like this idea because it shifts the variability to a range of seconds until the effect happens, rather than a somewhat hard binary outcome.

Gravity guns already apply a bit of upwards impulse on hit to act against the sticking. They don't apply a lot because Juggle isn't necessarily supposed to pull everything with no recourse. Ramping up the upwards impulse for sustained fire from gravity weapons, with a reset when the unit unsticks, sounds like a decent middle ground.
+4 / -0