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Lance is absolute cancer in team games

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Lance needs a massive nerf because currently the side that spams more lances wins.

For exemplary replays: see every single team game played.
+8 / -4

2 years ago
maybe it can be countered by overpowered Jumpers?

http://zero-k.info/Forum/Thread/34031 but most team games are not "high"? :)
+0 / -0
2 years ago
Very incorrect.

- Micro-heavy. You need to contantly dodge enemy units, esp. impaler shots.

- Turnrate is pathetic.

- Hard countered by likhos, there's no escape.

- Useless in dirtbagged terrains

- Can't really one-shot a lot of units as it might appear
+3 / -0
It definitely is OP in open maps where they have clear line of fire and where you can spread them properly.
Large part of the OPness comes from their usage with cloaker which make some counters (like Ravens) not work, while other counters are much less effective (and often suicidal).

Lances:
- murder heavies
- murder porc
- ruin balls of small units
- can counter most other long-range units, most of which are inaccurate and have no alpha
- can even hit air units (gunships, bombers) with good results

cons:
- they occastionally murder each other, which while sort of counter-balancing mechanic, should not happen
+6 / -0
quote:
Very incorrect.

- Micro-heavy. You need to contantly dodge enemy units, esp. impaler shots.

- Turnrate is pathetic.

- Hard countered by likhos, there's no escape.

- Useless in dirtbagged terrains

- Can't really one-shot a lot of units as it might appear

- You don't need to constantly dodge if they are cloaked, only move after firing

- Turnrate doesn't matter much for long range units

- With proper spread it is Likho that is countered as Lances can hit it (together with any AA that is in place), and it can bomb at most 1-2 Lances at a time, if only they actually decloak.

- agree to last two



+1 / -0

2 years ago
if you take 5+ lances and force-fire ground, then lob them mid-fireing, you get a lazor party!
+8 / -0

2 years ago
They really got easier to use after the 'avoid bad targets' update.
No more need to manual fire or get baited by fleas.
so they instagib correct targets.

I used to play gunships a lot. But with lances and artemis on 'avoid bad targets' they are useless.
+3 / -0

2 years ago
Question to the downvoters of the original comment:

Is the downvote about the basic claim or about the way that claim is presented?
+0 / -0
2 years ago
DErankkatastrophe I'd downvote myself.
+1 / -0
quote:
Is the downvote about the basic claim or about the way that claim is presented?

The latter. Which is not to say I entirely agree with the claim, either.

Lance is obviously strong. I think that Lance being strong is not necessarily bad for the game. It's flashy and cool, it has weaknesses, it often requires some skill and judgement to use effectively.

Its strength against planes and gunships is a bit weird.

From the teamgames I have watched or played recently (including TinySpider's most recent team game) I do not get the impression that it is a game-defining unit in every team game, or even in every game on a map where it would potentially be practical. If Lance were in fact that omnipresent I could well be on board with nerfing it, but I don't think a huge nerf would be required even then to bring it back to a reasonable level.

[Spoiler]
+1 / -0
2 years ago
quote:
- With proper spread it is Likho that is countered as Lances can hit it (together with any AA that is in place), and it can bomb at most 1-2 Lances at a time, if only they actually decloak.


and, the player with the lances will likely get the reclaim.
its also common that : air players sees decloaked lance - moves in likho - lance cloaks when likho gets close - likho shot down by aa and unfired lance. AND likho just flies in the air where the lances dissapered unless microed every second


quote:
- Useless in dirtbagged terrains


its not that expensive to smooth ground, but i agree terraform in general counter lances from pushing pretty well. although its abit annoying to use
also, dirtbags don't swim, terraform are expensive in sea

quote:
- Can't really one-shot a lot of units as it might appear


it doesn't, but it also doesn't have to. for example, siren,shield bot,or mino. yes, it doesn't one shot them, but pretty much half of their hp are just gone, its not very easy to push with that. you can easily drag out time for you to make more lances

although i think its one of the meta, i don't think its OP, but its definitely a pain to fight

haldberd counters it pretty well, but your opponents will get the reclaim, so its only cost effective when you're sure you will be able to push, or they dont have enough dps that your halbers will get out alive.
(seawolf or duck works sometimes, but it requires your opponent to make mistakes, so not very practical)
+2 / -0

2 years ago
quote:
its also common that : air players sees decloaked lance - moves in likho - lance cloaks when likho gets close - likho shot down by aa and unfired lance. AND likho just flies in the air where the lances dissapered unless microed every second

I would still classify Likho as a counter to Lance, but it can certainly work out poorly for the Likho user in the wrong situation.

quote:
haldberd counters it pretty well, but your opponents will get the reclaim, so its only cost effective when you're sure you will be able to push, or they dont have enough dps that your halbers will get out alive.
(seawolf or duck works sometimes, but it requires your opponent to make mistakes, so not very practical)

If we're talking about sea battles specifically, Envoy outranges Lance considerably and while it may not have the easiest time scoring solid hits it limits the Lance player's freedom a lot. Grizzly and Lance generally both have to give the other a fair bit of respect.
+1 / -0
Some thoughts:

- Air is somewhat out of the main counter-structure, so I would also classify Likho as a counter to lance, but I don`t think that says much as likho counters soo many things.

- Same with the dirtbag-terrain-deform, just that this is more a hazzle than a counter in most cases.

- In general I don`t think it is that useful to make an grument like: "Oh, but x counters y." On paper, there are many counters: raider swarms, Scythes, Skuttle, Bombers, Swifts somehow, Napalm Bombers, Ultimatum, Merlin, Behemoth, Lucifer, Impaler, everything that is cloaked. Most of them do on paper, but that doesn`t mean they would be useful in reality.

- The question is more: Is the interaction with this unit on the recieving end intersting and fun? I personally don`t think lances are too strong in the game as a whole, but playing against them is frustrating in many ways. I am particularily annoyed with lances killing swarms of small units when those happen to run somewhere, lance shoots at the leading unit and the following units run into the beam.

- So for me PERSONALLY: I have the same problem with lance as I basically have with jumpers. I dislike playing against them, I do not enjoy the interaction at all. But I don`t think that has to do with their balance stats-wise, but more the weapon-design. So, IDEALLY I would replace those units with other ones. In the case of lance, you would have to come up with something that keeps the original units "charme" (the stuff AUrankAdminAquanim put down) but that somehow feels more "fair" to the one playing against it. IDEALLY. I am aware that would require tons of work and is unlikely to happen.

quote:
From the teamgames I have watched or played recently (including TinySpider's most recent team game) I do not get the impression that it is a game-defining unit in every team game, or even in every game on a map where it would potentially be practical.


- I would throw in that there are many games i remember where lances do become a very significant part of a victory. By far not ALL games as you say. But I would say IF they are used in the correct setting, they have a tendency of drifting more towards the "situationaly overpowered" units.

+1 / -1
2 years ago
quote:
cons:
- they occastionally murder each other, which while sort of counter-balancing mechanic, should not happen


Lances will never murder themselves if they are stationary while firing.
+1 / -0
quote:
Lances will never murder themselves if they are stationary while firing.


he is still so young and innocent.

idea: half damage/sec, double beam damage time (reduces alpha while keeping dps) => more of a static-killer. you can move out of the lazor
+4 / -1
2 years ago
quote:
half damage/sec, double beam damage time

That would be a buff as it would improve performance against small units. It would be better if the damage was instant so it cannot kill unit groups, even as it is now it can delete rows of units because the laser lingers so long.
+1 / -0


2 years ago
The model has potentially animatable bits that would work with stop to fire. Stop to fire like on Emissary would make it much less harder for Lance to snipe'n'kite even with cloak. Simultaneously, it would lower incidence of suicide by jank.
+6 / -0


2 years ago
quote:
It would be better if the damage was instant so it cannot kill unit groups, even as it is now it can delete rows of units because the laser lingers so long.

Instant damage would be buff too, mostly vs air and heavies.
+1 / -0