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MM WHR Crashes

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It seems that every few days everyone's "Current Rating" on the MM ladder drops 150+ points. This seems to be correlated with server restarts.

I've had the pleasure of losing ~50 ladder rating to rANDY(being ranked #1 or #2 with me ~#10) because my current rating was suddenly 200 points lower than my ladder rating. I've also basically not gained rating after beating someone in the top 5.

What is going on with server restarts that is breaking ratings? Also it would be nice if ladder rating loss/gain was calculated only based on the predict %, and not the 30 day average or attempting to converge to current rating.
+2 / -0
The crashes aside, it has to try to converge to current rating or you couldn't be able to move much. My ladder rating is 1000 points down in Casual and it's still a grind. I gain 30 a win and lose 10 a loss (depending ofc). So assuming the 50/50 win rate I need 100 more games to get the ratings somewhat close, and that's with me at +1000 pressure. If it was just based off predict I would be forever stuck due to likely averaging a 50/50 win rate/predict rate because I am matching at 2700 but laddered at 1700.
+0 / -0
Converging isn't bound to the 0-50 range. Win 5 games and I guess you get to 0.9*current_rating because it uses the last X days WHR as reference.

Code is bugged. Add some logging to wtf it's doing on a restart. Like only 1 cycle because casual has already run? Or just multiple sad cycles.
+0 / -0
Reminder that this is still happening:


Source: rating statistics page for AUrankAdminGoogleFrog.

There was server downtime today, and now everyone's current rating is 100-200 points lower than it was prior -- as a result, playing MM within the next 24+ hours is very likely to adversely effect ones position on the ladder.
+0 / -0


3 months ago
I think there were 2 in short succession Dave, as it happened a couple of days ago too. So this is a double hit, and now I really don't want to risk losing by playing much at all :P
+1 / -0
My question is, where is the developer/admin response on this 20 day old thread? If you make a thread criticizing moderation you get an admin on your post in 10 seconds, yet here you don't even get a response, lul.
+1 / -4

3 months ago
I want to see the manager!
+1 / -0


3 months ago
GBrankLightzerve : Any mod can probably opine on moderation issues, those who are comfortable with server<->rating interactions are very few and may actually now be the empty set.
+0 / -1
quote:
My question is, where is the developer/admin response on this 20 day old thread? If you make a thread criticizing moderation you get an admin on your post in 10 seconds, yet here you don't even get a response, lul.

You are mixing up "developer" and "moderator" here. They are not the same job at all.

--

WHR and the ladder-rating system bolted on top of it to provide an interface more pleasant for human emotions is a complicated mess and, as far as I know, is easy to break with ill-informed meddling (if only because it is difficult to fully test a change before pushing it to the live server).

This leaves us with two facts:

* CHrankAdminDeinFreund and maybe CZrankAdminLicho are the only (infra)devs who, as far as I know, consider themselves competent to meddle with the rating system
* Those two developers don't have much time at the moment

and until one of those facts changes this probably isn't getting fixed and there isn't much useful for me to say about it.

If somebody makes an ticket at https://github.com/ZeroK-RTS/Zero-K-Infrastructure/issues maybe it will make it onto Licho's todo list.

Alternatively I suppose the coredevs may just make the decision to pull the plug entirely on the ladder-rating interface, or even WHR entirely, if it is decided to be more trouble than it is worth.
+0 / -0
3 months ago
quote:
if it is decided to be more trouble than it is worth.
As someone who thinks current system is much better than hiding everything (as it was before), I will definitely complain if the plug is pulled. While there are some people complaining now, there are ~1600 players on the ladder so my guess is that overall few complain. Would be interesting to know how many people access the web page with the ladder, to have a more objective evaluation of how many of the actual users are complainers.
+1 / -0
3 months ago
It's been ~22 hours since the server restart yesterday. The ratings still haven't completely recovered, with current ratings all being ~50 less than ladder ratings.

As far as I know, no one noticed that this was happening until this spring. Did server restarts become more common at that time, or did some change that Licho or someone else did cause this error?

I don't understand why the ladder would be removed. The reason I'm making some paltry attempts to track this is because I want a functioning MM ladder. I don't want to have to check when the last server reset happened to decide if it makes sense to play games.
+4 / -0

3 months ago
I am not saying that the ladder is liable to be removed entirely. I could however imagine the "ladder rating" being replaced with just using the raw WHR rating for everything, or WHR being replaced with something that is easier to maintain.
+0 / -0
Since the server going down was announced this time, I wanted to make an accurate before and after measurement on the impact of this issue.



Can't tell which is more brutal, knowing that 1v1ing will crush elons on loss and reward nothing on win (because of the new difference between CR and LR), or suspecting that the rating system has forgotten about the handful of team games I just grinded out some wins in permanently ( unknownrankTinySpider and GBrankSab's elons are unchanged from prior to the restart).
+3 / -0


3 months ago
GBrankPRO_Dregs : Does real WHR change?
+0 / -0


3 months ago
Needle on actual the ladder remains unshifted. So it's very discouraging to queue MM.

Combine it with the fact that we have a gameable system where playing less "rewards" you more in a sense, and this is attacking the motivation to play for those into the ladder from both angles.
+1 / -0

3 months ago
I am so confused, who care what your WHR is, your skill is your skill.

As long as it match you with good team balance, who care what the number say?
+1 / -1


3 months ago
quote:
I am so confused, who care what your WHR is, your skill is your skill.

As long as it match you with good team balance, who care what the number say?


If you genuinely want to understand why some people are more interested than you are, I'll be happy to answer from my point of view. If not, thanks for fulfilling the obligatory "person who humblemocks elo" role that all threads on the topic inevitably feature.
+2 / -0
AUrankSortale

Ladder rating moves towards the 30 day moving average of WHR (aka current rating).

As an example situation, say Dregs' Ladder rating is 3100, and his WHR 30 day average is 3150.

WHR currently thinks he is better than his ladder rating suggests, and it will try move his ladder rating in that direction, by awarding more Ladder rating points for a win, and not taking many away for a loss.

If a server reset happens and suddenly for the next 1-2 days until it gets back to where it was, WHR thinks Dregs' 30 day moving average is now 2950, he will get heavily punished, ladder rating wise, for any losses and gain little for a win, as WHR tries to bring his 3100 ladder rating inline with this temporarily corrupted WHR.

This means playing the ladder for Dregs (and everyone else as current rating seems to drop well below ladder rating for everyone after these server resets) is not a smart choice, if one of Dregs' pleasures and aims of playing is trying to climb the ladder.
+8 / -0


3 months ago
So it's WHR that's breaking... Do we know how it breaks (in some systemic way? is it just missing games it picks up later?)? Does it recover with time after a restart?
+0 / -0
3 months ago
We don't know why it breaks, and I haven't heard from any one "official" other than AUrankAdminAquanim on the subject. Here are the facts as I know them:

-It only happens on server restarts
-It only applies to matchmade WHR (it does not effect casual current rating)
-The effect seems to be around 100-200 elo, and always with a depressing effect.
-It takes about 2 full days for WHR to fully recover. This recovery is slow and incremental(it doesn't happen all at once).
-We started noticing it about 6 months ago
+2 / -0
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