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Air Battle Map

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23 months ago
isnt it interesting if we can have air battle map ? both side start east west island and mid is all covered by lava , do we have this kind of map ?
+5 / -0

23 months ago
AA TOO STRONG !
+0 / -0

23 months ago
This sounds like it would be a really cool mod, maybe modify AA, and make it an almost all Air game, that would be cool!
+0 / -0

23 months ago
This is more acid than lava, and I don't know that the concept works terribly well for ZK, but AcidicQuarry exists.
+3 / -0
quote:
isnt it interesting if we can have air battle map ? both side start east west island and mid is all covered by lava , do we have this kind of map ?


Red-green exists as an affront to nature. Seriously the concept does not work in ZK:

- AA's strength is far too high.
- Air's power diminishes greatly over time. There's no real "escalation"
- Transports do not provide enough hp pool to survive even more than even a few defenders.

These all combine to produce a game where you're almost always going to end up with a horrible stalemate that lasts until someone manages to make a superweapon.
+1 / -0

23 months ago
That's why you could make a mod for it, modifying the game considerably so those things could be fixed. I think it would be a fun mod, air battles are fun sometimes.
+0 / -0
23 months ago
Trying to play on AcidicQuarry, AI seems to get killed every time, but Chickens actually put up a fight. Probably won't be trying it more than once or twice, but just saying you can actually have some fun on such maps without doing too much work.
+1 / -0


23 months ago
quote:
That's why you could make a mod for it, modifying the game considerably so those things could be fixed. I think it would be a fun mod, air battles are fun sometimes.

At this point you're redesigning ZK air into a completely different role. If you're doing that, then why not make a mod without ground units? Then any map is the air battle map.
+1 / -0
I mean I've always advocated for air buffs/AA nerfs for ZK cause the air game is broken, but after what 10 years? of the devs nerfing air I've given up.
+1 / -0
23 months ago
it would be cool too bad air sucks
+0 / -0


23 months ago
I'll consider the possibility that you two know what you're talking about when you give any actual usable feedback.
+2 / -0
22 months ago
AUrankAdminGoogleFrog key issue is that air is not noob-friendly, its ability to kill things is strong even though its overall sustained DPS is garbage. Strong AA is the crutch that lets newbies prevent air from murdering them when they(or their teammates) are to stupid to build a reasonable amount of air defense.

I understand why this is done, its a sensible crutch, but its simply not great game play.

to the suggestions:
For AA ZK needs to pick a dump stat, they can't be both long range, high DPS, and high HP.

For AIR it needs a counter to AA effectively similar to how arty counters Porc, there are 100 ways to do this from making the disarm bomber armored/stealthed to giving air a shield flier or something.
+1 / -2


22 months ago
I've already done all this stuff in Future Wars ._.
+0 / -0
air is too 1-dimensional. either you have enough AA (overspend on it, because most AA units cant kill or prevent air units from killing your stuff with matched metal costs) and air cant do anything about it, or you dont and you get owned. this is like if porc was a hard counter to land units. there are tactics between land units and AA, but there aren't any between air and AA. air (planes) also lacks the gimmick units other facs have (cloaks, shields, crawling bombs, djinn, etc). something special like that could spice it up. though the way air is now, giving it shields or cloaks would be insanely unbalanced. really, i have no idea what changes could be made, there just arent enough things to tweak, it all relies on ground units to fill the gaps.
i get the idea of air being a specialist-type force, but it is shallow compared to other facs and not fun to play with or against.
+1 / -0
22 months ago
Sometimes I feel like air is more of a chore in some games than an actual front you would want to play. You go air instead of land or water because you need to counter the other player's air, not because you want to. It can be fun sometimes when playing on an island or water map and performing bombing runs on entire islands, but not fun when you send a couple raptors to counter swifts.

Maybe the air battle map needs to introduce some air resource to capture and defend. Some metal spots on steep mountains to force cranes into play.

I think it needs more variety in units and a good way to affect battle outcomes, although I'm not sure how.
+0 / -0

22 months ago
quote:
AIR it needs a counter to AA effectively similar to how arty counters Porc

"Porc needs a counter to arty effectively similar to how arty counters Porc"
+1 / -0
Sprung it exists, let me point you to le BEHE, and le BEBE, and le TACNUKE
+1 / -1

22 months ago
That is fine, mixed compositions work better.

By "porc" I meant just regular turrets like le HLT. Le Bebe and el Tacneaux are artillery themselves so have a different counter relationship to regular turrets and they complement each other's weakness (such as the one where without plain turrets, somebody can walk up to le Missile Sileaux and detruire your Tacneaux).

In the analogy above, aircraft are just the plain ground-holding turrets. You're supposed to add something to complement them, which is ground forces. In a teamgame the ground force is usually your allies, and in 1v1 that's your starting fac. If air could counter AA efficiently then there would be little reason to use anything else given it has the highest mobility. It would just be like Brood War ZvZ, endless muta spam.
+4 / -0
22 months ago
ok PLrankAdminSprung ill bite; the scenario is a teams game, 20 minutes in. You have a bomber fleet of 3 licho, but the enemy just built a screamer.

How are you countering this?
+0 / -0
You are part of a team so usually it is up to someone else to kill heavy AA. Air and non-air factories fulfill different roles, which stem from their speed and interaction with terrain. Simply put:
  • Land/sea players tend to contribute to a particular part of the map. Not all land/sea factories are suitable for all types terrain, but player take this into account by selecting factories that match the terrain in their area of the map. Players can often shift to adjacent areas fairly easily, but can leave fronts open. Large shifts are possible but costly in terms of time.
  • Air players can contribute across the whole map with barely any travel cost. They are meant to target their forces to where they are most effective.
The result is that land factories needs to be able to deal with a wider range of problems, simply because a land player can't easily go support another area. Each land factory has some way to deal with raiders, some way to deal with defenses, some way to deal with heavy units. They vary in power across these categories, but do better than air against similar cost in AA. Air is the opposite. It can go anywhere, so if there is too much anti-air in one part of the map, then they can often support another.

If you have three Likhos but the entire map is covered by heavy AA, then the enemy probably spent more than 6k on AA (or you are playing Storm Siege). This is a positive contribution as an air player. You were so threatening that the enemy spent a lot of metal fending you off. Every front has fewer ground forces because of this, the support was successful. It gets even better:
  • The AA is unlikely to be fully effective. Eg, if the enemy makes a push they are likely to push out of heavy AA range. Use the Likho then.
  • The AA is vulnerable. Artemis (Screamer) can be killed, for cost, by a brand new missile silo and a single tacnuke. This is even taking into account the wreckage. The enemy is now invested in keeping their AA alive, otherwise the Likho reassert themselves.

To sum up, air is not a role meant for inflexible lone wolves. You are supporting fronts held by land players, not opening your own. Coordinate with the land players about what you can snipe to open up a front, or the AA they need to focus on to get your support. If the enemy makes a lot of AA and your land players are too busy or non-communicative, then adapt. Build a missile silo, plate a land factory, make a strider. The game would hardly be one of dynamic strategies if it were always optimal for a single player to make nothing but bombers, regardless of how much AA the other team makes.

The counter structures of air and land factories are entirely different. Each land factory has most of the "tactical level" counters, so they can each deal with other land factories. The main counter structure for air is "strategic level", with air beating ground, ground beating anti-air, and anti-air beating air. Removing this counter structure, by giving air explicit anti-anti-air units, makes ground units redundant in the counter structure. So then the question is, why even make ground? Air is so fast and convenient, and beats most ground forces, so shouldn't each team just make air? Sure, ground can be more effective as a counter, but air is really quite convenient. It ignores terrain and makes force easy to concentrate. If no combination of AA can beat a dedicated anti-AA air force, then it is hard to imagine ground having much of a role at all.

An alternate approach is to do away with AA and move air into the ground counter structure. So there would be things like a raider plane that is countered by riots and a riot plane that counters raiders. But such a design would make air unrecognisable, and in many ways pointless. Air would have to move and fight on land-unit speed and range scales for it to fully integrate with the land counter structure. But this seems like a terrible trade. Would you rather have two extra land factories, or a whole domain of combat that behaves differently, sitting on top of and supporting the land game? The latter is what we have now, and it seems pretty interesting. Air in ZK works quite well, which I measure by how many games have people being effective with aircraft for a lot of the game, without generally dominating the whole game. Perhaps we have players that enjoy the aesthetic of aircraft and the playstyle of land ZK, and want to do both at once?
+4 / -1
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