What exactly are these superior to? correct me if im wrong but I believe avengers are even better than them and also rapiers? Maybe a buff/change or elimination of them is in order

your right just tested it

Air is always about numbers. Much more so than ground units, because there's so much space that all of them can engage the battle at once. Always gotta keep that in mind. :)

Still vamps arent that much better. I mean if you put a riot vs some raiders there is a much bigger diference. Through vamps are really nice to scout the enemy and kill air cons in the begin of the game since he survives some aa.

The vamp has almost 2x the HP/cost of the Avenger, and 50% more DPS/cost.
The Rapier has 30% more hp/cost, but the vamp has ~2.7x the DPS. Rapier can be hit by ground and cant evade AA, thus the extra HP.

It is worth remember that both of these are probably using their long reloads more effectively than the vamp, making the vamp good at chasing bombers (constant DPS) but not as good at sweeping runs.

Its primary advantage is its ability to chase enemy bombers into AA range, and even operate over enemy territory taking out bombers while they are on their landing pads or factory. It is, really, then, an interceptor- an anti-bomber fighter. Though 'interceptors' tends to mean 'fast', and it is slower than the avenger.

It will beat equal cost avengers or rapiers, but that is a losing battle, because unlike those units it cannot hit ground. Since it cant be used cost effectively in small numbers vs a massed rapier army (Lancasters square law), you need equal cost, but its just not worthwhile to build equal cost in vamps to beat rapiers, because the rapiers will still be able to defend against ground attacks. It is better to use land AA against rapiers.

Personally i'm still not totally fond of the dynamic. There needs to be a real choice between using the Rapier to stop him from hitting you with fighters, and using some other, superior gunship you would otherwise prefer if he isnt using fighters. The rapier needs to fly lower, be slower, have its range reduced (vamps and fighters still fly overhead) or such so it is more vulnerable to ground forces or ground AA, so that the other choices are genuinely superior vs a non-air player. These massive balls which require equal cost are not how the rapier should be used: Ideally i'd like to see it mixed in to gunship forces to fend off fighters, and spammed only vs pure air (where it is a battle of mobility vs versatility). Hopefully the 200 HP nerf will help.

Ye but its just too little diference

^ Skasi is using them the way I designed. I have no idea if it's what Sak designed.

Sak does make the point that for my design their weapons are a little backwards, missiles are better in a small dogfight when much of a plane's time is spent without anything in it's line of fire. It's not entirely backwards as lasers are good in big fights where all the missiles fire at once and overkill the first enemy encountered.

Vamps can be used to beat gunships, as they were in http://zero-k.info/Battles/Detail/26021 this game, because he had much higher numbers than i had gunships.

But if you ask me, overbuilding vamps (then even destroying my gunship factory) was a major mistake by google in that game. But he couldnt afford to fall behind my gunship production, because then i can just shoot his vamps right out of the sky.

I dont have much of a problem using vamps to chase. Bombers are almost always worth it and AA can rarely take you out before you've destroyed every last one.

I dont know about how you designed it google: You've explicitly said 'Planes cant beat gunships because then nobody would use planes'. You even purposely nerfed the rapier keeping the fact it still has to be able to beat vamp (in slightly superior numbers) in mind. As far as i can see it, then, its only use is to kill avengers (which it only does so well).

I'm pretty sure when we discussed the most recent change to vamps (a HP increase), it was decided, rather an explicit RPS structure, we'd go for 'Vamp has the HP, avenger has the DPS'. Personally, when there is just too much AA and the front lines are too close together to patrol effectively with avengers, i use vamp swarms because when the bombers come i can shrug off the AA. Dunno about you guys.

I suggest following ;)

Because air tend to patrol in a constant line and not bulked, they are really weak against a bulk of vamps flying in at a single point.

Also ground AA has a too high range.

If you nerf Rapiers in range they are weaker than most other AA because:
1. They can get damage from Vamps and Avengers special AA missle.
2. They can be outranged by Vamps even now if you micro Vamps well.
3. The HP got nerfed from 1400 to 1300 ( Did they had 1500 at any time? )

I think that rapiers need to be more like Avengers - one AA weapon and one Ground weapon.
Even if you decide that it can use both weapons at once.
It would be a bit stronger against air than ground if it can attack air with it's ground weapon too.
( What's about a high range AA missle and a stronger ground missle witch can attack near fighters as well? )

To compensate this extended AA abilities the vamp can get more range - like a Archangel or more than that?

Vamps should be able to get slower while moving toward any possible target and get max speed if it is flying without deal damage.
That behavior would increase the chances of Vamps on Patrol because they can fly/turn faster while they are aiming at the attackers.

But it's also false that Avengers deal constant rates of damage !
Avengers can only attack the target efficiently with it's laser weapons.
But Vamp hit each possible target in the weapons angle while it can't fire at the primary target.
Also Vamp deals damage while it's getting closer in a constant rate, but never get close to the faster Avenger.
The faster speed of Avengers don't let them time to fire it's laser weapons as long as the Vamp.
The Vamp is flying behind an Avenger deals damage while the Avenger is getting away.

But I still don't understand why the Avenger with it's AA missle need this extreme fast turning moves.
Vamp need it much more than Avenger !!!