AA vs bombers

I always feel that land artilleries should at least outrange AA turrets, so we can have a full counters circle. Currently there is no good way to deal with no-fly zone, especially in late games.

Bombers are a (relatively) viable start even in 1v1, and with bigger teams they only become better.
It takes a some attention and micro, but bombers can be used very efficiently to cull enemy early expansion. Bombing cons is easy and you can often get away with it unpunished. So while your own expansion iw very slow, you do have the means to slow down your opponent as well.
The problem is in the progression. In early game bombers have free reign unless there are enemy fighters. In late game bombers are not worth the price. The problem, i think, is not even in the balance of AA objects, but in the way bombers work. Their hit and run approach means just damaging a bomber is as good as not hitting it at all. So AA weapons that can't kill incoming bombers are useless, while the ones that can easily turn an area into a no-fly zone. Since those high-end AA turrets are expensive and are built by land players who have other things to do, that kind of AA only appears later in the game. Since you need to cover your entire frontline, the bigger the map, the longer air remains viable.

High-end AA should be nerfed, especially chainsaws. If you want to be safe from bombers, you should build your own fighters, not AA. AA is there to attrition the enemy air a bit, fight enemy gunships, and deter the enemy fighters from pursuing your bombers too far. The early game probably can be fixed a bit by adjusting weights. Phoenix needs cost reduced and aim improved, while shadow could have all of its stats increased (including cost), so it becomes more of a sniping specialist, not an all-purpose bomber it is now.

I agree with Anarchid, that fighters should not be the counter to air. If the only viable counter to planes are more planes, then not having a planes factory is not an option. Gunships counter many ground factories (e.g light vehicle), but planes counter gunships. Static defences counter planes, ground factories counter static AA. This already IS a full circle, and I think it works.

The balance between shadow and phoenix certaily needs to be restored. Air needed a cheaper all-purpose bomber because it was helpless against most early-game attacks, so shadow became cheaper. But phoenix' poor aim, high cost and (I think) nerfed burntime makes it useless compared to shadow.

quote: If the only counter to air is more air, then why even bother; air becomes optimal. I don't think this is a good approach.

The only counter to ships are ships. And yet people build amphs and hovers.

Having one air is already optimal in any team game above 3v3, and possibly 2v2/3v3 too. Air has a massive early game advantage, especially if it has someone else to back up its weaknesses. On the other hand, air also has a massive late game disadvantage.

In my opinion, the closest thing to RPS air should have is "Fighters -> Bombers -> AA -> Fighters". AA should be used to make it easier for your fighters to kill enemy air, maybe shoot down a bomber or two. It should not just create no-fly zones.

I am not talking about abolishing AA altogether. Just nerfing it hard enough to make it not as cost effective. Chainsaw is not expensive enough for its ability to create such huge no-fly zones.
Air-based AA suppression is a joke right now. The best answer an air player has for heavy AA is a factory switch.

quote: The only counter to ships are ships.

dont agree. without intel, the element of surprise is key. ships have three fight vectors instead of 2 like on ground. torpedo, ground, air. therefore your ship-forces must match the incoming forces/outmaneuver the enemies on an assault. only then, they are superiour for the cost. so if you cannot beat them on one area, switch to another and DONT let the ship player know. take him by surprise. like: B237888 9 on Tempest , loosing surface water fight, suddenly a secret horde of subs overwhelms a default/minor antisub part in the major enemy fleet.



ships are generally better in what they do for cost than other facs. but you also have the need for good intel to adapt and cover all 3 fight areas in a proper way.

also. ships are considered unbalanced.

Yogzototh the only good option for a team without aa is chainsaw. Now you want to nerf or kill it? That doesn't make sence.
I know screemer is the ultimate aa but it has stockpile and is very expensiv. So only for lategame.

quote: Phoenix: grossly UP. Lower HP than shadow, higher cost, damage per run is usually lower, misses often. I think it deserves a weight increase.

I think biggest Phoenixes affair is that its ALWAYS turnng when its droping napalm. Thats why it tends to miss a lot. Why cant it go straight, just like Stiletto does?

Also I think we need some changes in air fac. As already mentioned, vamps are usualy usless on medium-sized to bigger maps, becasue they cant react fast enough.
How about lowering both Licho and Shadow speed (like much... much... very much...), so vamps can react easier but making them (or only Shadow) a bit more beefy, and changing phoenix to fast (same speed as avenger) carpet bomber* with medium HP which can actualy run from vamps and cost like 1,2k metal?

Before u say that we can't remove P, becasue its the only plane taht can kill swarms, ask yourselves a question. How many times have u seen those beeing in use (don't count newbs)?


* - it would drop 5 or 6 precision bombs with very small AoE in a row (or in 2 rows, ''from'' wings) with simmilar DMG to Shadows bombs, but in way it drops napalm now.

give chainsaw/screamer hp boost so they are harder to bomb.
remove all aoe except for flak to reduce no fly zone (basically nerf screamer and reduce cost)
increase chainsaw rof reduce dmg to keep same dps, so it deals with low cost crap being spammed
increase licho hp, reduce its aoe

now the static aa vs air is more attritional rather than hard counter.

also, phoneix maybe fixed by increasing weight?

quote: increase chainsaw rof reduce dmg to keep same dps, so it deals with low cost crap being spammed

Unless you further increase missilespeed, it would do the exact opposite. Chainsaw would fire many missiles on one target, while the first one would've already killed the target.

quote: And also, how do i attach an image to a post?

http://zero-k.info/Forum/Thread/2424